EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
JDW wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 07:01 am
VS2 has overall been fine in CF.
Maybe instead it should be Church vs. Noot, or Church vs. Burleson.
An OF defense of Church-VS2-Noot would be a really good one.
The argument against defense is, they can’t hit. But if the other team can’t score, then a mediocre hitting team has a chance.
+ Defense and + base running help win games. The path to the SB is easier now. When do the Cards learn to take advantage of this?
The Brewers learned.
Although ridiculously early to try and project Church, Nathan looks to be a guy who accumulates WAR well, where plus defense and base running IS accounted for.
More SB's and less gidp's for the offense, combined with more defensive runs saved.
Which other team would have a better defensive OF than the Cards with that alignment?
Funny thing is, the SP's then look a little better than they really are, with lesser pitch counts/inning.
Offense wins games. Defense wins championships. Most times.
Except that hasnt been true in a long time. If you look at both the ws winners and world series runnerups the last several years- most all except a few ranked near the top of the league in offense. Not the same for defense. That old phrase is just a phrase.
Also with strikeouts higher than ever before(although pur pitching staff doesnt strike batters out)- defense gets less opportunities
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
JDW wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 07:01 am
VS2 has overall been fine in CF.
Maybe instead it should be Church vs. Noot, or Church vs. Burleson.
An OF defense of Church-VS2-Noot would be a really good one.
The argument against defense is, they can’t hit. But if the other team can’t score, then a mediocre hitting team has a chance.
+ Defense and + base running help win games. The path to the SB is easier now. When do the Cards learn to take advantage of this?
The Brewers learned.
Although ridiculously early to try and project Church, Nathan looks to be a guy who accumulates WAR well, where plus defense and base running IS accounted for.
More SB's and less gidp's for the offense, combined with more defensive runs saved.
Which other team would have a better defensive OF than the Cards with that alignment?
Funny thing is, the SP's then look a little better than they really are, with lesser pitch counts/inning.
Offense wins games. Defense wins championships. Most times.
Except that hasnt been true in a long time. If you look at both the ws winners and world series runnerups the last several years- most all except a few ranked near the top of the league in offense. Not the same for defense. That old phrase is just a phrase.
Also with strikeouts higher than ever before(although pur pitching staff doesnt strike batters out)- defense gets less opportunities
Shucks. I stand corrected. Can’t use my saying anymore; unless, I say, “ used to be, it seems, offense won games, defense wins “
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
You probably believe that despite how untrue it really is. Everybody can read a statline. Church was known for his good contact, selective swings and line drives in HS and college. Limited power which would grow as he progressed in professional ball was his only shortcoming.
After drafted he was thrown into the PB lineup and he struggled as most players do. But his improvement over his 90 plus bats was such that they moved him to Peoria for '23. .279 .364 .360 .724 was respectable enough to promote him to AA for '24 though he was told to develop some power. He tripled his HR output from 3 to 9 with a respectable .268 .331 .373 .704 while becoming recognized as a remarkable fielder. He showed the fielding off in ST of '25 and was sent back to the minors to work on developing power.
It all came together in '25 with .329 .386 .524 .910 accumulated between AA and AAA...equally brilliant at both stops. He never skipped a beat in AAA. 5 triples and 13 HRs in 347 ABs. His contact did not suffer while his exit velocity soared.
His hitting prowess is only a surprise to stat line readers. He is a hitting dude, and, IMO, will adapt quickly to the majors.
ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 06:44 am
There are plenty of good MLB players who didn't get to the major until mid 20's. In the case of Church he has 2 MLB hits. Watch him for the rest of the season and see how he does.
Biggest problem for this team is lack of starting pitching, closer setup men, middle relievers and long relievers. If that doesn't get fixed by 2026 we will be in the same place a year from now.
I think many still embrace starting pitchers and consistency year to year. Meaning each year will produce like last year.
Bob Gibson- 1963-1972, 7 times 19 wins or more. 18,16, and 13 the other three years.
My point- that is consistency. That’s the model many hold to in their minds. It isn’t plausible.
Relievers and closers seem to truly be year to year. Tough assignment.
JDW wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 07:01 am
VS2 has overall been fine in CF.
Maybe instead it should be Church vs. Noot, or Church vs. Burleson. An OF defense of Church-VS2-Noot would be a really good one.
yes, but nary a RH hitter.
that's awfully Left Handed
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
You probably believe that despite how untrue it really is. Everybody can read a statline. Church was known for his good contact, selective swings and line drives in HS and college. Limited power which would grow as he progressed in professional ball was his only shortcoming.
After drafted he was thrown into the PB lineup and he struggled as most players do. But his improvement over his 90 plus bats was such that they moved him to Peoria for '23. .279 .364 .360 .724 was respectable enough to promote him to AA for '24 though he was told to develop some power. He tripled his HR output from 3 to 9 with a respectable .268 .331 .373 .704 while becoming recognized as a remarkable fielder. He showed the fielding off in ST of '25 and was sent back to the minors to work on developing power.
It all came together in '25 with .329 .386 .524 .910 accumulated between AA and AAA...equally brilliant at both stops. He never skipped a beat in AAA. 5 triples and 13 HRs in 347 ABs. His contact did not suffer while his exit velocity soared.
His hitting prowess is only a surprise to stat line readers. He is a hitting dude, and, IMO, will adapt quickly to the majors.
Scott and church
In 2023 scott hit .303 across A+ and AA hitting better at AA than church did at A+ that year despite scott being a year younger. Only difference is we then rushed scott up to the majors in 2024 and he wasnt yet ready.
Both were drafted same year and scott hit better and was promoted faster.
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
You probably believe that despite how untrue it really is. Everybody can read a statline. Church was known for his good contact, selective swings and line drives in HS and college. Limited power which would grow as he progressed in professional ball was his only shortcoming.
After drafted he was thrown into the PB lineup and he struggled as most players do. But his improvement over his 90 plus bats was such that they moved him to Peoria for '23. .279 .364 .360 .724 was respectable enough to promote him to AA for '24 though he was told to develop some power. He tripled his HR output from 3 to 9 with a respectable .268 .331 .373 .704 while becoming recognized as a remarkable fielder. He showed the fielding off in ST of '25 and was sent back to the minors to work on developing power.
It all came together in '25 with .329 .386 .524 .910 accumulated between AA and AAA...equally brilliant at both stops. He never skipped a beat in AAA. 5 triples and 13 HRs in 347 ABs. His contact did not suffer while his exit velocity soared.
His hitting prowess is only a surprise to stat line readers. He is a hitting dude, and, IMO, will adapt quickly to the majors.
Scott and church
In 2023 scott hit .303 across A+ and AA hitting better at AA than church did at A+ that year despite scott being a year younger. Only difference is we then rushed scott up to the majors in 2024 and he wasnt yet ready.
Both were drafted same year and scott hit better and was promoted faster.
maybe a testament of how poor pitching is in the minors, especially low minors, cause Scott can't hit a lick
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
You probably believe that despite how untrue it really is. Everybody can read a statline. Church was known for his good contact, selective swings and line drives in HS and college. Limited power which would grow as he progressed in professional ball was his only shortcoming.
After drafted he was thrown into the PB lineup and he struggled as most players do. But his improvement over his 90 plus bats was such that they moved him to Peoria for '23. .279 .364 .360 .724 was respectable enough to promote him to AA for '24 though he was told to develop some power. He tripled his HR output from 3 to 9 with a respectable .268 .331 .373 .704 while becoming recognized as a remarkable fielder. He showed the fielding off in ST of '25 and was sent back to the minors to work on developing power.
It all came together in '25 with .329 .386 .524 .910 accumulated between AA and AAA...equally brilliant at both stops. He never skipped a beat in AAA. 5 triples and 13 HRs in 347 ABs. His contact did not suffer while his exit velocity soared.
His hitting prowess is only a surprise to stat line readers. He is a hitting dude, and, IMO, will adapt quickly to the majors.
Scott and church
In 2023 scott hit .303 across A+ and AA hitting better at AA than church did at A+ that year despite scott being a year younger. Only difference is we then rushed scott up to the majors in 2024 and he wasnt yet ready.
Both were drafted same year and scott hit better and was promoted faster.
maybe a testament of how poor pitching is in the minors, especially low minors, cause Scott can't hit a lick
It doesnt always translate. And we did have scott skip memphis in coming up here in 2024. If not for edman carlson and noot all being unavailable opening day, scott never would have been rushed up here
He looked like he figured some things out early this season but thats faded
rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 09:07 am
Mo has left C. Bloom with a mess in the OF.
I'm not sure any of the one's we're seeing this season even finish the year starting in the OF in 2026.
The OF has been a disgrace for too many years, hopefully through some smart trades and (small) FA signings Bloom can repair the Mo Mess.
Moe’s parade of OF deplorables over the past decade should have caused him to be best friends with Dr. Tar and Mr. Feather. The guy is a raving moron when it comes to player assessment. A joke of an evaluator. Just like his managers evaluations. How can a guy who is so bad at his job critique upcoming players?
EastCoastDave wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 05:47 am
It’s been fun watching Nathan Church over the past couple of series, especially last night when he got his first hit and first homer. He’s played superb defense in center and has showed off his very strong arm. Watching last night, I began thinking that I’d like to see more of him the rest of the year. But that would mean that Victor Scott II would see less time when he returns from IL, likely stunting his development. I’ve no idea how either player will develop over the next several years, but I like both players. Each plays very good defense, which is essential for a center fielder. I don’t know enough about Church’s minor league career, but I do wonder why he’s getting to the majors at age 25. Scott is 24 with a couple of years of experience in the Majors. Is Church worth a look as an everyday player at the expense of Scott? Where does Church fit in with the Cards? Given Church’s age, it seems that if he’s not in Majors next year, he’ll never make here. Agree?
College drafted players usually don't make it to the majors until 24-6. Church is more adept at hitting than Scott and seems to be about as fast with better arm. There is no reason he won't make it; the bat plays.
I like Scott as well, but he needs to work on hitting. Defense only won't make him stand out.
That is yet to be proven. And yes church hit better in the minors thos year than scott- but at an older age than scott is currently and this year came out of nowhere. Church had a .705 ops at AA in 2024 and in 2023 .724 ops in A+ ball.
Before this year, there was nothing to suggest church could hit at all.
You probably believe that despite how untrue it really is. Everybody can read a statline. Church was known for his good contact, selective swings and line drives in HS and college. Limited power which would grow as he progressed in professional ball was his only shortcoming.
After drafted he was thrown into the PB lineup and he struggled as most players do. But his improvement over his 90 plus bats was such that they moved him to Peoria for '23. .279 .364 .360 .724 was respectable enough to promote him to AA for '24 though he was told to develop some power. He tripled his HR output from 3 to 9 with a respectable .268 .331 .373 .704 while becoming recognized as a remarkable fielder. He showed the fielding off in ST of '25 and was sent back to the minors to work on developing power.
It all came together in '25 with .329 .386 .524 .910 accumulated between AA and AAA...equally brilliant at both stops. He never skipped a beat in AAA. 5 triples and 13 HRs in 347 ABs. His contact did not suffer while his exit velocity soared.
His hitting prowess is only a surprise to stat line readers. He is a hitting dude, and, IMO, will adapt quickly to the majors.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑23 Aug 2025 09:07 am
Mo has left C. Bloom with a mess in the OF.
I'm not sure any of the one's we're seeing this season even finish the year starting in the OF in 2026.
The OF has been a disgrace for too many years, hopefully through some smart trades and (small) FA signings Bloom can repair the Mo Mess.
Moe’s parade of OF deplorables over the past decade should have caused him to be best friends with Dr. Tar and Mr. Feather. The guy is a raving moron when it comes to player assessment. A joke of an evaluator. Just like his managers evaluations. How can a guy who is so bad at his job critique upcoming players?
Mo has almost singlehandedly e f f e d up this organization.
From horrible free agent signings to pitiful extensions to hiring terrible Managers he's wrecked the Rolls Royce Walt handed him.
But in reality it's all BDWJr's fault!
He could've ended this reign of ineptness years ago by firing Mo.
