ESPN MLB player rankings

[JuanAgosto]

Obviously this team has no star power. And yes, the roster construction has sucked (donkey) for years. But I also take anything espn says with a grain of salt. Those idiots once suggested the Cardinals should've traded a prime Pujols for Ryan Howard. And they had an analyst who stated Molina was not a HOFer. Dumb (bleep).

[RunSup]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

I must have missed them. I saw William but not Wilson. Winn offense is not on par with other SS. He has some with to do. Gray was 138. I just don’t see what the plan is other than saving $. Going young with only 1 player with star upside (Wetherholt) will not be enough. That $100m needs to be spent on 3 superstars to join him.

Sorry. I was looking at hitter only ration kings. You are right. No Cardinals in the combined top 100

[sikeston bulldog2]

The biggest thing with no star power or face of the franchise, is, other teams do not fear us. They probably don’t even gane plan for us. Do we have one player that the other teams says- don’t let him beat us. No.

[ramfandan]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

Fine if you have Pujols Edmonds and Rolen to carry a Def only SS. But when you have 3 of those guys Pages and Scott are other 2 you would need Judge Ohtahni Alonso Soto to balance them out.

Yea but you don’t get rid of an elite defensive 22 year old shortstop with offensive upside because you have players that suck on defense and offense like walker and Gorman elsewhere you dump the ones who suck at everything

Spot on ! Winn is a keeper. Play JJ at 2nd long term.
What a combo to build around .

[Jatalk]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

Yes but I didn’t need ESPN to tell me that. Our “star” can’t hit, stays injured and has kept younger players from playing third base.

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

[Futuregm2]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

[moose-and-squirrel]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

now do Ozzies first 4 yrs in the league

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

now do Ozzies first 4 yrs in the league

I don't care about his Padres days.

He became a way better offensive player here under Whitey's guidance.

[moose-and-squirrel]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

now do Ozzies first 4 yrs in the league

I don't care about his Padres days.

He became a way better offensive player here under Whitey's guidance.

so... apples to oranges

[Futuregm2]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

[3dender]

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

Well said.

He has remarkably similar numbers to Andrelton Simmons's performance through age 23, which was Simmons's 1st full season. If that's all he becomes offensively I'll be disappointed, but such a performance would still make an extension worthwhile.

Renteria had better absolute offensive numbers but was worse relative to the rest of the league than Winn through age 23, despite having been in the league since age 19. While he had a .341 OBP over that time, and a .722 OPS, he only had an 89 OPS+. It's funny, I had remembered Renteria as more potent offensively but outside of his excellent 2002-2003 I'm seeing that wasn't the case.

Either way, if we're talking about Renteria/Simmons as his floor, he's gonna be a solid player at worst, and to your point definitely a top-100 player.

[Ozziesfan41]

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

Well said.

He has remarkably similar numbers to Andrelton Simmons's performance through age 23, which was Simmons's 1st full season. If that's all he becomes offensively I'll be disappointed, but such a performance would still make an extension worthwhile.

Renteria had better absolute offensive numbers but was worse relative to the rest of the league than Winn through age 23, despite having been in the league since age 19. While he had a .341 OBP over that time, and a .722 OPS, he only had an 89 OPS+. It's funny, I had remembered Renteria as more potent offensively but outside of his excellent 2002-2003 I'm seeing that wasn't the case.

Either way, if we're talking about Renteria/Simmons as his floor, he's gonna be a solid player at worst, and to your point definitely a top-100 player.

Renteria was clutch with men on though .295 .355 .771 and with men on he was .305 .361 .774 Masyn Winn is batting .295 .355 .765 with runners in scoring position this season and .281 .332 .723 with runners on which explains why he kills it batting 2-6 and is completely useless leading off so try and get runners on for Winn and he’s good

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

now do Ozzies first 4 yrs in the league

I don't care about his Padres days.

He became a way better offensive player here under Whitey's guidance.

so... apples to oranges

No

Opinion to Opinion