Sonny Gray stinks. Trade 'em

[MrPostman01]

If he sweats so much they should make him sweat even more. Imagine that sweat blinding the hitter and making the ball dance.

[Futuregm2]

7 IP 1 h 1r 8K at Dodger Stadium. We don't need that in our rotation next year or for his option in 2027.

He saw that the month of the calendar turned from July to August. No more stinking it up.

He is allergic to July.

2025: 6 starts 2-3 6.81 ERA .935 OPS against
2024: 4 starts 1-1 6.75 ERA .920 OPS against
2023: 5 starts 0-2 4.85 ERA .604 OPS against
2022: 5 starts 2-2 5.92 ERA .777 OPS against
2021: 5 starts 2-2 5.88 ERA .825 OPS against

[WaltsSuccessor]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

[Ozziesfan41]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

So he’s not good never will be very good but will somehow get back a cost controlled young #2 starter? lol okay that would cost the Jesus JJ plus others

[rockondlouie]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

So he’s not good never will be very good but will somehow get back a cost controlled young #2 starter? lol okay that would cost the Jesus JJ plus others

Not hardly

[rockondlouie]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

He’s somewhere between Dal and Edgar with a better glove. League average offense is ok with good to better defense at SS.

A bigger concern is to fill third with a league level hitter, with quality defense. I fear the next third baseman will be often compared to NA. An unfair comparison.

[rockondlouie]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

He’s somewhere between Dal and Edgar with a better glove. League average offense is ok with good to better defense at SS.

A bigger concern is to fill third with a league level hitter, with quality defense. I fear the next third baseman will be often compared to NA. An unfair comparison.

Agreed BDog

League average hitting SS w/an elite glove can bring back a quality #2 starter w/control.

3rd is going to N. Gorman w/hopefully league average defense to go w/his 25-30 HR bat.

You can't comp his defense to NADO or Rolen or even Pendleton, Obie or Reitz!

[sikeston bulldog2]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

He’s somewhere between Dal and Edgar with a better glove. League average offense is ok with good to better defense at SS.

A bigger concern is to fill third with a league level hitter, with quality defense. I fear the next third baseman will be often compared to NA. An unfair comparison.

Agreed BDog

League average hitting SS w/an elite glove can bring back a quality #2 starter w/control.

3rd is going to N. Gorman w/hopefully league average defense to go w/his 25-30 HR bat.

You can't comp his defense to NADO or Rolen or even Pendleton, Obie or Reitz!

You make my point reference Gorman. You can’t compare him to anyone. He’s that bad. No number of reps will help. Would you say he is Shannon level or better. Freese?

[WaltsSuccessor]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

So Masyn Winn right now is right at A. Simmon's career year offensively. As a 23 year old in his second full season. And he's the best defensive SS in baseball right now per Fangraphs. So why aren't we agreeing that this is Winn's floor?? He's already an extremely valuable player, league average hitter or not. And no reason to believe he can't improve some as a 23 year old.

But my bad on my comment on SS the position as a whole. Was very surprised by some of those 17 names. Equally surprised Betts wasn't one of them.

[rockondlouie]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

He’s somewhere between Dal and Edgar with a better glove. League average offense is ok with good to better defense at SS.

A bigger concern is to fill third with a league level hitter, with quality defense. I fear the next third baseman will be often compared to NA. An unfair comparison.

Agreed BDog

League average hitting SS w/an elite glove can bring back a quality #2 starter w/control.

3rd is going to N. Gorman w/hopefully league average defense to go w/his 25-30 HR bat.

You can't comp his defense to NADO or Rolen or even Pendleton, Obie or Reitz!

You make my point reference Gorman. You can’t compare him to anyone. He’s that bad. No number of reps will help. Would you say he is Shannon level or better. Freese?

Can't comment on Shannon but I'd say he can equal Freese.

[rockondlouie]

Dewitt was aching to get rid of the 2026 salary, glad Sonny told him "No".

Sonny is owed $35m for next season plus at least a $5m buyout on his $30m team option for 2027. So guaranteed $40m left on his deal.

He clearly likes it here for whatever reason as he's politely declined to waive his NTC twice now. No reason to think that changes this off-season.

You know the Cardinals don't love that $35m salary next season. I'm wondering if the Cards approach him with an extension to tack on another year to spread out the AAV a bit. Something like $25m for 2026, $30m for 2027, and the same $5m buyout on a $30m team option for 2028. Guarantees him an extra $20m and potentially $45m if the option is exercised.

But if I'm Sonny, I tell the FO I'm only agreeing to that to help out the 2026 payroll AFTER they acquire (sign or trade) for another TOTR arm. I like Libby, Pallante, McGreevy, etc. But this team isn't going anywhere without another playoff caliber starter. Those guys have value as reliable back of the rotation arms to eat some innings and keep you competitive. They aren't enough to actually make this team good. Bring in another difference maker then Mathews or Doyle are icing on the cake if they push into the rotation. No reason for Sonny to do them any favors if they're just going to pocket the savings.

Interesting idea about Gray extension Walt.

But I'm not a fan of Pallante, just a weak #5 with no upside at best.

Hopefully Bloom adds a starter (or two) via trades and/or free agency.

I'm also starting to get excited again about Q. Mathews (Last 6 GS: 2.93 ERA), I'd like to see him get a shot next spring.

Doyle, if he does well, could be up at any time in 2026 as well.

Wonder who would be a good target in FA. Obviously we aren't going to sign Cease of Valdez. Maybe there's a good turnaround upside guy that needs that pillow contract like Flaherty or Rodon (Giants).

Maybe Bieber? Gallen? Walker Buehler? Dustin May or German Marquez if they finish strong? Preferably somebody not super old.

Good question

Of those you listed, I wonder if they'd take a look at Z. Gallen/30 (coming off a poor 2025 but prior was a top NL starter)?

I have no interest in May or Marquez.

Biebers injury prone, Buehler hasn't been the healthiest either.

Trade targets could be where Bloom goes for his starter.

I know this isn't popular w/some but I'd dangle M. Winn (and one of our young minor league catchers) and try to land a cost controlled for multiple years #2 starter.

That puts a lot of pressure on JJ to succeed. Winn isn't a superstar (yet), but he has such a high floor. I don't like trading him at all. I get you have to give to get, but I'd pick someone else to move. I like Donny but he makes more sense to trade this offseason than Winn.

I'm not worried about that one bit, JJ (IMO) is the player to build around.

And (again IMO) Winn will never be a "superstar", most likely never even a multi-time all-star.

His floor as a hitter isn't high, he's likely nothing more than a league average (100 - 105 wRC+) hitter.

I'd move him in a NY minute for a young, cost controlled #2 starter and never look back.

JMO

Basically, you just described his floor (where he's currently at) as Andrelton Simmons who had a 36 career WAR....

And it's entirely possible his offense improves. Most MLB SS's aren't league average hitters anyway.

No I didn't "basically" describe his floor as A. Simmons (career: .263 .312 .366 .678/87 OPS+) who's career WAR came almost exclusively from his great defense, bad comp by you.

Aside from a career year, to me he's a league average 100-105 wRC+ hitter.

And you're mistaken about MLB SS's, they're seventeen (17) qualified SS's w/a higher OPS than Winn and many well above league average hitters.

So Masyn Winn right now is right at A. Simmon's career year offensively. As a 23 year old in his second full season. And he's the best defensive SS in baseball right now per Fangraphs. So why aren't we agreeing that this is Winn's floor?? He's already an extremely valuable player, league average hitter or not. And no reason to believe he can't improve some as a 23 year old.

But my bad on my comment on SS the position as a whole. Was very surprised by some of those 17 names. Equally surprised Betts wasn't one of them.

Look, I hope you're right Walt and Winn post .800 OPS after .800 OPS/120+ wRC+ seasons, I just don't see it.

Well aware of his defense, why I think he'd bring back a quality #2 starter w/control.

[Carp4Cy]

7 IP 1 h 1r 8K at Dodger Stadium. We don't need that in our rotation next year or for his option in 2027.

35 years old making $35m next year on a team in a 3-5 year rebuild was why he was a trade piece. His timeline age and salary are not a match for a rebuild.

Taking five years for a rebuild is gross negligence. If you can’t get it done in (way) less than five years, you aren’t gonna get it done at all.

Smoke and mirrors. I’d rather go back to trying to win the division every year then hoping you get lucky in the playoffs because sometimes that works while this race to the bottom is just going to fail miserably and chase off all the fans.

Certainly more than the time remaining on Grays contract

We have an option for 2027.

[Youboughtit]

7 IP 1 h 1r 8K at Dodger Stadium. We don't need that in our rotation next year or for his option in 2027.

35 years old making $35m next year on a team in a 3-5 year rebuild was why he was a trade piece. His timeline age and salary are not a match for a rebuild.

Taking five years for a rebuild is gross negligence. If you can’t get it done in (way) less than five years, you aren’t gonna get it done at all.

Smoke and mirrors. I’d rather go back to trying to win the division every year then hoping you get lucky in the playoffs because sometimes that works while this race to the bottom is just going to fail miserably and chase off all the fans.

Certainly more than the time remaining on Grays contract

We have an option for 2027.took 6 years

Took 6 years for Bloom prospects to affect the Red Sox. Cardinals
Are in a 5 year rebuild. What good is 2027? They either need to spend to come a contenders sooner or this will am a long time.

[Youboughtit]

7 IP 1 h 1r 8K at Dodger Stadium. We don't need that in our rotation next year or for his option in 2027.

35 years old making $35m next year on a team in a 3-5 year rebuild was why he was a trade piece. His timeline age and salary are not a match for a rebuild.

Taking five years for a rebuild is gross negligence. If you can’t get it done in (way) less than five years, you aren’t gonna get it done at all.

Smoke and mirrors. I’d rather go back to trying to win the division every year then hoping you get lucky in the playoffs because sometimes that works while this race to the bottom is just going to fail miserably and chase off all the fans.

Certainly more than the time remaining on Grays contract

We have an option for 2027.

Took 6 years for Bloom prospects to affect the Red Sox. Cardinals
Are in a 5 year rebuild. What good is 2027? They either need to spend to come a contenders sooner or this will take a long time.

[Quincy Varnish]

Also he's gotta shave that 'stache. And get a haircut. He's no Skenes.

Vern Rapp jr for manager! Let's major on the meaningless minors for a change.

Yesterday Skenes threw 6 innings of shutout ball against the Reds… 8 strikeouts, no walks, 7 hits.

Typical Skenes, right?

It wasn’t. It was the first time in the majors he allowed more than 6 hits. His career began with 46 straight starts in which he allowed 6 hits or fewer.

He was just two games short of the all-time record - 48.

That record belongs to… Sonny Gray.