We finished last 2 years ago. Now a dump and rebuild?

[3dender]

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

[rockondlouie]

12-15,000 actual at most games.

Payroll slashed by BDWJr.

The franchise has hit rock bottom under Mo/Oli.

[Cranny]

12-15,000 actual at most games.

Payroll slashed by BDWJr.

The franchise has hit rock bottom under Mo/Oli.

Have you been there to see that, rock? I was there
last Thursday and it was a good crowd. And a good win.

[Futuregm2]

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

I wouldn’t say they were young.

Perez (25)- young
Hosmer (25)- young
Infante (33)- not young
Escobar (28) - not young
Moustakas (26)- young-ish
Gordon (31)- not young
Cain (29) - not young
Rios (34) - not young
Morales (32)- not young
Zobrist (34) - not young

Their rotation had a couple young/young-ish starters, the rest were not young. Bullpen was mostly not young.

[3dender]

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

I wouldn’t say they were young.

Perez (25)- young
Hosmer (25)- young
Infante (33)- not young
Escobar (28) - not young
Moustakas (26)- young-ish
Gordon (31)- not young
Cain (29) - not young
Rios (34) - not young
Morales (32)- not young
Zobrist (34) - not young

Their rotation had a couple young/young-ish starters, the rest were not young. Bullpen was mostly not young.

What about cost-controlled tho.

[rockondlouie]

12-15,000 actual at most games.

Payroll slashed by BDWJr.

The franchise has hit rock bottom under Mo/Oli.

Have you been there to see that, rock? I was there
last Thursday and it was a good crowd. And a good win.

Hey moron, how many times do I have to tell you I've had season tickets for over a decade?

I've been to more games this season than you've probably been to in the last five years, going tonight how bout' you?

And of course if you can read I said, "..most games".

[rockondlouie]

And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

100% true

NONE of the players Mo acquired in the last fire sale have amounted to anything.

Saggese (.228 .259 .331 .590) = JAG
Roby = INJURED all the time
King (5.31 ERA) = DFA material

None of the prospects Mo acquired in that selloff will ever be "average", re: 100 OPS+ players.

That said, let's hope C. Bloom has some say in this (hopefully) selloff of Helsley, Maton, Matz and ?????

And as I mentioned above:


Katie Woo
@katiejwoo
#STLCards pitching prospect Tekoah Roby underwent Tommy John surgery on Friday and will likely not pitch until 2027, multiple sources tell The Athletic.

[RichieRichSTL]

Another rebuild? Did I miss the first one?

We got nine prospects for six or seven MLB players in 2023. Not sure what good it’s done.

The problem, as we've seen with Fedde, is that dopey waits until their value is low and then he trades them. I mean what do you expect?

[mattmitchl44]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

You don't have to have an entire roster full of them. You still have to supplement your holes with some FAs and or trades. You have to have some vets too.

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

But you add them AFTER you have achieved your core of young cost controlled players so you know precisely what holes you need to fill.

[StlMike1969]

I do not feel the team is in any frame of mind to trade Donovan. The message it sends and the return would not justify it. Not now. In the off season with Bloom making wholesale changes, and he acquires a legit 3rd baseman to go with Wetherholt at 2nd and Winn at SS then I can see a move for Donny happening then. That would mean though Arenado is gone. This deadline I think we see Arenado and Helsely moved with a side piece of Nootbar or Gorman also.

[Ozziesfan41]

If you can trade him for top prospects you absolutely do it in my opinion. He’s not a power hitter he doesn’t have speed he’s not going to score 100 runs he’s not going to drive in 100 runs he will be around a.780 OPS hitter he’s versatile. That’s the kind of player that elevates a good to a very good team he’s not the type of player who elevates a mediocre or bad team to a good team and he’s not the type of player you should build a team around. If you can trade him for high end ready for the majors players you do it. The cardinals have lost with him they can lose without him

[Carp4Cy]

Some people are still fixated on the fact that not all prospects work out. Since predicting the future for any player is an inexact science, it is of course going to be true that some prospects will work out and some won't. But that only makes the case for obtaining MORE prospects rather than fewer.

You have to develop a critical mass of young cost controlled players on your ML roster. And you have to do that despite the fact that some of your prospects will not work out. So you need to obtain - by drafting, signing, trading for, etc. an excess of prospects to do that.

The Cardinals do potentially need to get better at evaluating other teams' prospects to increase their hit rate on prospects they get back in trades, however.

You don't have to have an entire roster full of them. You still have to supplement your holes with some FAs and or trades. You have to have some vets too.

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

But you add them AFTER you have achieved your core of young cost controlled players so you know precisely what holes you need to fill.

No necessarily. You should add them when they are available if their controllability/contract will extend beyond the immediate. Its not too early to start adding controllable players to our existing core. We've already shed Plenty of payroll to afford it and will be wiping a lot more out in 2 months (or 2 days). So add some talent back to the roster just to maintain enough ticket sales that we can support a payroll for 26 and 27 etc. Revenue support is a key consideration. Losing doesn't make us better in the future.

[ICCFIM2]

And that load of prospects Mo got in that selloff two years ago have amounted to a BIG FAT NOTHING!

Why I'm not confident he'll get much for Helsley, Maton, Matz etal if they're dealt unless C. Bloom is making the call.

That is not entirely true. Sagesse may be OK, Roby may be decent. King pitched OK last year. But, we were not trading A list guys last year. If they trade Helsley, they need to get someone better than Roby in return.

When it comes to trading a player like Donovan, who is an established ML player who should average around 3BWar per year, the haul needs to be spectacular. When teams like the Dodgers say they are interested, I am not certain how well I like their top 10 prospects. If they do want a trade, I want 3 of their top 10. They only have 1 pitcher in that group and several OFs, but they are all 2027 ETA. I want 2 of them.

You are right, none of the players we get in a deal like I just described may turn out to be good. But, we would have added 3 players that could be average to above avg ML players. When you look at baseball trade value, the Dodgers have some OF prospect, Zyhir Hope, who is in high A ball and has a 2027 ETA who they give the same trade value as Donovan. The proposed trades give us him, a lower pitching prospect and a lottery ticket. While the theoretical trade values match up, no way if I am the Cards do I make that trade. He could easily become the next Jordan Walker and we have nothing. I want him, plus their #1 prospect, plus their #6 prospect, a SP prospect. While the trade values I sure say that is an overpay for Donovan, if the Dodgers want another WS title and think Donovan gets them there, that is the price. But, the payoff is going to be years away...

100% true

NONE of the players Mo acquired in the last fire sale have amounted to anything.

Saggese (.228 .259 .331 .590) = JAG
Roby = INJURED all the time
King (5.31 ERA) = DFA material

None of the prospects Mo acquired in that selloff will ever be "average", re: 100 OPS+ players.

That said, let's hope C. Bloom has some say in this (hopefully) selloff of Helsley, Maton, Matz and ?????

And as I mentioned above:


Katie Woo
@katiejwoo
#STLCards pitching prospect Tekoah Roby underwent Tommy John surgery on Friday and will likely not pitch until 2027, multiple sources tell The Athletic.

Of course that comment did not take long to not age well. But, if you read my entire comment regarding the value of Donovan compared to prospects, what I was stating is that you need 3 really top prospects to make that trade because likely only 1 of them really works out. Unfortunately, the baseball world over values prospects so it is hard to make the trade work unless a team is willing to part with several over valued prospects for one specific player. So, I was arguing your side to some degree.

With respect to the 2023 trades, the odds will always be on your side because most prospects do not work out. There is still hope for Saggese as he put up some stellar minor league numbers. He may be JAG. But, it is not hopeless. Yes, Roby is always hurt. It is pitching so it happens. But, they have the guy still and who knows, maybe he comes back in 2027 and makes it. We acquired a young Chris Carpenter 20+ years ago and he sat out 2 years with injuries. Then...Maybe we can get lucky again. At this point, I think that is what we are left with hope.

[Carp4Cy]

A team built of young cost controlled players only, will never win a WS.

What about 2015 Royals.

I wouldn’t say they were young.

Perez (25)- young
Hosmer (25)- young
Infante (33)- not young
Escobar (28) - not young
Moustakas (26)- young-ish
Gordon (31)- not young
Cain (29) - not young
Rios (34) - not young
Morales (32)- not young
Zobrist (34) - not young

Their rotation had a couple young/young-ish starters, the rest were not young. Bullpen was mostly not young.

What about cost-controlled tho.

You can "control" costs at any level.

[hugeCardfan]

People want to trade Donovan? Then what. 100 loss team for a year or two. Then what? We get 3 years out of the prospects and trade them for another rebuild?

It’s a barely .500 team…….Donovan, for his positives, is not elevating this club to contender status.

If they don’t move him, he will still be surrounded by mediocrity next year, so where is the value in keeping him?

Yes, let's get rid of every quality player and trade them for prospects so we can really be terrible for a long time.

[hugeCardfan]

If you can trade him for top prospects you absolutely do it in my opinion. He’s not a power hitter he doesn’t have speed he’s not going to score 100 runs he’s not going to drive in 100 runs he will be around a.780 OPS hitter he’s versatile. That’s the kind of player that elevates a good to a very good team he’s not the type of player who elevates a mediocre or bad team to a good team and he’s not the type of player you should build a team around. If you can trade him for high end ready for the majors players you do it. The cardinals have lost with him they can lose without him

When was the last time somebody traded their top prospect? Who would we trade JJ Weatherholt for?...especially if he has only 2 years left til FA?

How is it we know that Donovan cannot help elevate a mediocre or bad team? Hasn't he done that this year? We aren't very good and yet until a week ago we were considered still in the hunt.

Trade the good players and all you have left is prospects which makes a very bad team.