Cards on pace to shed 1 million fans from ballpark and become one of the leanest run orgs.

[RichieRichSTL]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

In other words, full circle, back to the early 90s when the brewery owned the team.
Fans have proven time and again, that they WILL support this team in a way above and beyond the market size. All they ask is you a) put together a playoff worthy team and when the team looks like it could be special, you dont ignore it to ensure you have at least mediocre teams for the next 5 years. b) you level with the fans. The Cardinals knew they weren't quite there in the late 90s, but they at least tried to put together an exciting team.

The message they've been sending since the winter of 2014/2015 is they are more geared towards putting together a team they can pass off as competitive. Their vision since 2015 is that they don't have a vision. Just making sure they have enough talent to be competitive and hoping to sneak into an expanded playoffs. So we get half measures:

Heyward vs power

Waino vs Scherzer/Waino, with built in protection if one goes down

Waino/Holliday injured much of season, broken down Brandon Moss & no backup for Waino

Win now move in Ozuna, then dont complete the job

Bring in Goldschmidt/Arenado and dont build a team around team.

Get rid of MM and talk about not meeting expectations. When Schildt proves successful in spite of poorly constructed teams, bring in a completely untested bench coach to replace him. When Oli fails, ignore 2018 statements of expected standards.

Simply no vision, except to ensure a certain profit level without too much risk and hope to strike gold.

[OldRed]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

In other words, full circle, back to the early 90s when the brewery owned the team.
Fans have proven time and again, that they WILL support this team in a way above and beyond the market size. All they ask is you a) put together a playoff worthy team and when the team looks like it could be special, you dont ignore it to ensure you have at least mediocre teams for the next 5 years. b) you level with the fans. The Cardinals knew they weren't quite there in the late 90s, but they at least tried to put together an exciting team.

The message they've been sending since the winter of 2014/2015 is they are more geared towards putting together a team they can pass off as competitive. Their vision since 2015 is that they don't have a vision. Just making sure they have enough talent to be competitive and hoping to sneak into an expanded playoffs. So we get half measures:

Heyward vs power

Waino vs Scherzer/Waino, with built in protection if one goes down

Waino/Holliday injured much of season, broken down Brandon Moss & no backup for Waino

Win now move in Ozuna, then dont complete the job

Bring in Goldschmidt/Arenado and dont build a team around team.

Get rid of MM and talk about not meeting expectations. When Schildt proves successful in spite of poorly constructed teams, bring in a completely untested bench coach to replace him. When Oli fails, ignore 2018 statements of expected standards.

Simply no vision, except to ensure a certain profit level without too much risk and hope to strike gold.

[rockondlouie]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

Age.

Mo
Oli
BDWJr

[mattmitchl44]

Not surprising.

When Atlanta did their deep rebuild, their attendance dropped by 500,000. Houston's dropped by over 1 million. Philadelphia's dropped by over 1.5 million.

And they all bounced back.

The important part will be at the end of the rebuild. Once they have a sufficient core of young players to build around again, they will probably need to loosen the purse strings in advance of attendance rebounding by maybe 1 season.

And that is why if they are going to do a rebuild they need to commit to it. This constant middle ground, do nothing mindset will get them nowhere. It's not resulted in the team improving in any way. It's certainly not leading to more fans attending games.

Maybe they're waiting until Mo leaves to do this. I don't know, I kind of have my doubts about that. After all, at the end of the year press conference last year neither of the DeWitts would even admit that they planned on reducing payroll until Mo had to jump in and say, "yes, we will be reducing payroll." So as much as people give Mo (bleep), maybe it's on the owners for not being willing to commit to do what needs to be done.

All I know is that if they are worried about losing fans because they need to rebuild for a season or two, what do you think the last three years have done? What is another likely bad season next year going to do? They had the opportunity to be proactive, but passed it by time and time again.

It all comes down to whether you believe this payroll reduction is permanent or transitory. Like the Braves, Astros, Phillies, etc., I believe it's transitory until proven otherwise. After they have reloaded with a lot of good young talent, I expect payroll to rise back to where they have historically been around 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.

But spending money just to be mediocre and appease some fans when they are not in a position to be really competitive is just a waste IMO.

[desertrat23]

So for quite awhile, a vocal contingent on CT wants current management gone and up until 3 years ago were drawing well.
That's, perhaps, the best way to show disdain or disappointment with a company...stop participating.

Now this is just another negative rant towards the organization for the vocal contingent.

Does anyone else see the irony.

You do realize you have been given what you've talked for...new leadership.

Now as to the Cards being competitive as a small market team. They need to mimic/steal/pilfer from the Brewers organization.

We haven’t “been given” new leadership. We’ve been promised new leadership once the old leader’s loyalty/farewell tour is over.

[Absolut]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

Per Google. St. Louis Metropolitan Area:
Overall Growth:
The St. Louis metropolitan area has seen overall population growth over the last half-century, despite the city's decline.
Recent Metro Area Population:
In 2023, the St. Louis metro area had a population of 2,811,927 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Metro Area Growth:
The metro area's population has increased by almost 12 percent over the last half-century, according to FOX


The cards have historically drawn from more that just stl city and county. This isn’t about a bump or drop in stl population. This is about awful and clueless ownership and management.

This, well stated.

The whole game day experience is a young man’s game. Hotel- get up early to eat their free breakfast. Rush around. Traffic. Parking. Hot. 95 degrees. Long walk. Seats in sun. Money. People everywhere. Then, got to do it all again when it’s over.

A ten hour commitment. You gotta want it when you age.

This too has a play into attendance.

This has been true forever. Didn’t stop people before

[butsir01]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

Age.

You’re a good guy, ‘dog, but that’s not the response I was looking for.

[butsir01]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

Age.

Mo
Oli
BDWJr

Yes. And, please, nobody insult The Boys by referring to the three from Clark Street as them.

[desertrat23]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

Per Google. St. Louis Metropolitan Area:
Overall Growth:
The St. Louis metropolitan area has seen overall population growth over the last half-century, despite the city's decline.
Recent Metro Area Population:
In 2023, the St. Louis metro area had a population of 2,811,927 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Metro Area Growth:
The metro area's population has increased by almost 12 percent over the last half-century, according to FOX


The cards have historically drawn from more that just stl city and county. This isn’t about a bump or drop in stl population. This is about awful and clueless ownership and management.

This, well stated.

The whole game day experience is a young man’s game. Hotel- get up early to eat their free breakfast. Rush around. Traffic. Parking. Hot. 95 degrees. Long walk. Seats in sun. Money. People everywhere. Then, got to do it all again when it’s over.

A ten hour commitment. You gotta want it when you age.

This too has a play into attendance.

If that's the case, they need to be focusing on a younger audience, because there's nothing any team can do to combat that. Get exciting young players with personalities who can mash or strike guys out. Bat flippers, guys who scream after they get someone to chase at 99mph fastballs. JJ Wetherholts and Liam Doyles, who I have no doubt the old-timers will hate once they get here.

[ilcubuffs]

The current situation with the Cardinal organization is self inflicted. When attempting to "fix" the gapping wound, part of the solution is accepting responsibility. Fans know who is responsible and NOT coming clean will keep fans away - lack of trust. Yes fans are cash cows. But people with the gold make the rules. Demeaning fans shows the reality of how out of touch ownership and FO is regarding their fans.

The days where MO Ran and DimWallet were put on a pedestal for being iconic business and MLB competent execs are long gone. They are NOT great but "smug mediocrity". (Thank you Mr Dobbs for resurrecting the phrase).

Watching Fedde give up 6 runs in 3 innings to the Rocs - 2 HR. This is how far the Cardinal organization has fallen.

[Braund241]

I just checked the attendance and they are 17th at 29,465 avg. per game.
Just 3 years ago they drew 41,000 per game and were 2nd in attendance.
In addition to shedding 1 million fans, the organization will shed millions in payroll again in 2026.
They don't even need to trade anyone to do it.
By just allowing existing contracts to expire, they will be in the top 5-6 most leanly run organizations.
I anticipate attendance may further erode in 2026 as well, but not at such a drastic amount as seen this season.
So, is this a successful business model?
It may very well be.
Going from $170M in payroll a few years ago to say $100M in payroll in 2026 while only losing say 1.2M fans.

Check my work:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2022

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resour ... ns/payroll

They are becoming the new Pittsburgh Pirates.

[Bully4you]

I just checked the attendance and they are 17th at 29,465 avg. per game.
Just 3 years ago they drew 41,000 per game and were 2nd in attendance.
In addition to shedding 1 million fans, the organization will shed millions in payroll again in 2026.
They don't even need to trade anyone to do it.
By just allowing existing contracts to expire, they will be in the top 5-6 most leanly run organizations.
I anticipate attendance may further erode in 2026 as well, but not at such a drastic amount as seen this season.
So, is this a successful business model?
It may very well be.
Going from $170M in payroll a few years ago to say $100M in payroll in 2026 while only losing say 1.2M fans.

Check my work:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2022

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resour ... ns/payroll

You have to understand that soccer came in since then and people are spending their money that way,and the Blues also putting people in the seats.

Soccer is eating into their draw?
Man, they've got a much bigger problem than I thought.

[sikeston bulldog2]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

Per Google. St. Louis Metropolitan Area:
Overall Growth:
The St. Louis metropolitan area has seen overall population growth over the last half-century, despite the city's decline.
Recent Metro Area Population:
In 2023, the St. Louis metro area had a population of 2,811,927 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Metro Area Growth:
The metro area's population has increased by almost 12 percent over the last half-century, according to FOX


The cards have historically drawn from more that just stl city and county. This isn’t about a bump or drop in stl population. This is about awful and clueless ownership and management.

This, well stated.

The whole game day experience is a young man’s game. Hotel- get up early to eat their free breakfast. Rush around. Traffic. Parking. Hot. 95 degrees. Long walk. Seats in sun. Money. People everywhere. Then, got to do it all again when it’s over.

A ten hour commitment. You gotta want it when you age.

This too has a play into attendance.

If that's the case, they need to be focusing on a younger audience, because there's nothing any team can do to combat that. Get exciting young players with personalities who can mash or strike guys out. Bat flippers, guys who scream after they get someone to chase at 99mph fastballs. JJ Wetherholts and Liam Doyles, who I have no doubt the old-timers will hate once they get here.

I refer strictly to myself. Once I get to the park, most ails subside. Again it’s the extended hassle prior to and following the games, that generally drag me down.

The game itself, if not in a hot sun spot, is cool.

[sikeston bulldog2]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

Age.

You’re a good guy, ‘dog, but that’s not the response I was looking for.

You’re on it as well. Great contributions. I was referring to all the actions that must happen from home/hotel in the morning till return. Hard on older person.

[Rojo Johnson]

Not surprising.

When Atlanta did their deep rebuild, their attendance dropped by 500,000. Houston's dropped by over 1 million. Philadelphia's dropped by over 1.5 million.

And they all bounced back.

The important part will be at the end of the rebuild. Once they have a sufficient core of young players to build around again, they will probably need to loosen the purse strings in advance of attendance rebounding by maybe 1 season.

And that is why if they are going to do a rebuild they need to commit to it. This constant middle ground, do nothing mindset will get them nowhere. It's not resulted in the team improving in any way. It's certainly not leading to more fans attending games.

Maybe they're waiting until Mo leaves to do this. I don't know, I kind of have my doubts about that. After all, at the end of the year press conference last year neither of the DeWitts would even admit that they planned on reducing payroll until Mo had to jump in and say, "yes, we will be reducing payroll." So as much as people give Mo (bleep), maybe it's on the owners for not being willing to commit to do what needs to be done.

All I know is that if they are worried about losing fans because they need to rebuild for a season or two, what do you think the last three years have done? What is another likely bad season next year going to do? They had the opportunity to be proactive, but passed it by time and time again.

It all comes down to whether you believe this payroll reduction is permanent or transitory. Like the Braves, Astros, Phillies, etc., I believe it's transitory until proven otherwise. After they have reloaded with a lot of good young talent, I expect payroll to rise back to where they have historically been around 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.

But spending money just to be mediocre and appease some fans when they are not in a position to be really competitive is just a waste IMO.

A waste, huh? Well, they are paying and they will continue to pay dearly for not spending and appeasing ”some fans”. No one can predict how much apathy and lack of goodwill will cost the De Witts. But the lack of butts in seats suggests their penury will come with a hangover effect that could prove costly at least in the short run (next few seasons). I think you are being short sighted about what the effect will be.

[hotrivets]

Not surprising.

When Atlanta did their deep rebuild, their attendance dropped by 500,000. Houston's dropped by over 1 million. Philadelphia's dropped by over 1.5 million.

And they all bounced back.

The important part will be at the end of the rebuild. Once they have a sufficient core of young players to build around again, they will probably need to loosen the purse strings in advance of attendance rebounding by maybe 1 season.

And that is why if they are going to do a rebuild they need to commit to it. This constant middle ground, do nothing mindset will get them nowhere. It's not resulted in the team improving in any way. It's certainly not leading to more fans attending games.

Maybe they're waiting until Mo leaves to do this. I don't know, I kind of have my doubts about that. After all, at the end of the year press conference last year neither of the DeWitts would even admit that they planned on reducing payroll until Mo had to jump in and say, "yes, we will be reducing payroll." So as much as people give Mo (bleep), maybe it's on the owners for not being willing to commit to do what needs to be done.

All I know is that if they are worried about losing fans because they need to rebuild for a season or two, what do you think the last three years have done? What is another likely bad season next year going to do? They had the opportunity to be proactive, but passed it by time and time again.

It all comes down to whether you believe this payroll reduction is permanent or transitory. Like the Braves, Astros, Phillies, etc., I believe it's transitory until proven otherwise. After they have reloaded with a lot of good young talent, I expect payroll to rise back to where they have historically been around 10th, 11th, etc. in MLB.

But spending money just to be mediocre and appease some fans when they are not in a position to be really competitive is just a waste IMO.

A waste, huh? Well, they are paying and they will continue to pay dearly for not spending and appeasing ”some fans”. No one can predict how much apathy and lack of goodwill will cost the De Witts. But the lack of butts in seats suggests their penury will come with a hangover effect that could prove costly at least in the short run (next few seasons). I think you are being short sighted about what the effect will be.

Sometimes a business can cut costs- advertising, personnel- and get away with it for a while. P&Ls look better and they are a genius. But unless those areas were really bloated the business suffers. And as you said there is a lag effect even if they turn the taps back on. Sports team owners are lucky in that ticket sales and attendance can bounce back quickly if they deliver a better product but things like season ticket sales and ad sales can take longer to recover. Cardinals were clearly playing over their expected return based on the roster and now have regressed to the expected result.