Cards on pace to shed 1 million fans from ballpark and become one of the leanest run orgs.

[hotrivets]

The greater STL market is growing slightly in population so that is not it. The Brewers have been successful with a lower payroll in a smaller MSA. Cardinals used to spend a lot more; now the total payroll is getting close the same.

Cardinals front office has made poor trades and decisions and unbelievably demonstrated hostility toward the fan base. A cheaper TV option would help but probably not until the product on the field improves.

[smilinjoefission]

The Cards waste tens of millions in bad contracts every season, so they have the money, they just aren't smart with it

[An Old Friend]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

Makes you wonder what really went on behind hackgate. It’s hard for me to believe that a longtime successful businessman such as Dewitt couldn’t see for a mile away what Mo was steamrolling this ridiculously proud and envied organization to complete irrelevance. Unless him and his son just got as caught up in their egos as Mo has been you have to wonder if they kept Mo around because they had no other choice in the matter

Lot of similarities to Reinsdorf who also prioritized loyalty and has taken his fan base for granted.

[rockondlouie]

I was saying all winter BDWJr and his austerity plan was looking at losing 500,000-1,000,000 and he's right on pace for it.

Having season tixs I can also say many, many nights I'm at the games the crowd can't be more than 15-20,000 actually there.

Unless he give C. Bloom the same level of payroll he gave Mo ($170-180M), then Bill's looking at even smaller crowds in 2026.

As an aside the Cardinals are a REGIONAL TEAM, they draw almost 35%+ of their attendance from surrounding states (Ill, Tenn, Ark, ect...) so don't just cite the St. Louis metro of 2.8M when they draw from an area twice that size.

[scoutyjones2]

So for quite awhile, a vocal contingent on CT wants current management gone and up until 3 years ago were drawing well.
That's, perhaps, the best way to show disdain or disappointment with a company...stop participating.

Now this is just another negative rant towards the organization for the vocal contingent.

Does anyone else see the irony.

You do realize you have been given what you've talked for...new leadership.

Now as to the Cards being competitive as a small market team. They need to mimic/steal/pilfer from the Brewers organization.

[sikeston bulldog2]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

Makes you wonder what really went on behind hackgate. It’s hard for me to believe that a longtime successful businessman such as Dewitt couldn’t see for a mile away what Mo was steamrolling this ridiculously proud and envied organization to complete irrelevance. Unless him and his son just got as caught up in their egos as Mo has been you have to wonder if they kept Mo around because they had no other choice in the matter

I’ve always thought Mann did Bill a favor by not publicly punishing STL.

No, he did the penance behind the scenes, and we are now seeing the sin.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Not surprising.

When Atlanta did their deep rebuild, their attendance dropped by 500,000. Houston's dropped by over 1 million. Philadelphia's dropped by over 1.5 million.

And they all bounced back.

The important part will be at the end of the rebuild. Once they have a sufficient core of young players to build around again, they will probably need to loosen the purse strings in advance of attendance rebounding by maybe 1 season.

And that is why if they are going to do a rebuild they need to commit to it. This constant middle ground, do nothing mindset will get them nowhere. It's not resulted in the team improving in any way. It's certainly not leading to more fans attending games.

Maybe they're waiting until Mo leaves to do this. I don't know, I kind of have my doubts about that. After all, at the end of the year press conference last year neither of the DeWitts would even admit that they planned on reducing payroll until Mo had to jump in and say, "yes, we will be reducing payroll." So as much as people give Mo (bleep), maybe it's on the owners for not being willing to commit to do what needs to be done.

All I know is that if they are worried about losing fans because they need to rebuild for a season or two, what do you think the last three years have done? What is another likely bad season next year going to do? They had the opportunity to be proactive, but passed it by time and time again.

[musicman]

I just checked the attendance and they are 17th at 29,465 avg. per game.
Just 3 years ago they drew 41,000 per game and were 2nd in attendance.
In addition to shedding 1 million fans, the organization will shed millions in payroll again in 2026.
They don't even need to trade anyone to do it.
By just allowing existing contracts to expire, they will be in the top 5-6 most leanly run organizations.
I anticipate attendance may further erode in 2026 as well, but not at such a drastic amount as seen this season.
So, is this a successful business model?
It may very well be.
Going from $170M in payroll a few years ago to say $100M in payroll in 2026 while only losing say 1.2M fans.

Check my work:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2022

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resour ... ns/payroll

You have to understand that soccer came in since then and people are spending their money that way,and the Blues also putting people in the seats.

[Bomber1]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

Per Google. St. Louis Metropolitan Area:
Overall Growth:
The St. Louis metropolitan area has seen overall population growth over the last half-century, despite the city's decline.
Recent Metro Area Population:
In 2023, the St. Louis metro area had a population of 2,811,927 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Metro Area Growth:
The metro area's population has increased by almost 12 percent over the last half-century, according to FOX


The cards have historically drawn from more that just stl city and county. This isn’t about a bump or drop in stl population. This is about awful and clueless ownership and management.

This, well stated.

[OldRed]

I just checked the attendance and they are 17th at 29,465 avg. per game.
Just 3 years ago they drew 41,000 per game and were 2nd in attendance.
In addition to shedding 1 million fans, the organization will shed millions in payroll again in 2026.
They don't even need to trade anyone to do it.
By just allowing existing contracts to expire, they will be in the top 5-6 most leanly run organizations.
I anticipate attendance may further erode in 2026 as well, but not at such a drastic amount as seen this season.
So, is this a successful business model?
It may very well be.
Going from $170M in payroll a few years ago to say $100M in payroll in 2026 while only losing say 1.2M fans.

Check my work:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2022

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resour ... ns/payroll

You have to understand that soccer came in since then and people are spending their money that way,and the Blues also putting people in the seats.

Cardinals lack of attendance has nothing to do with soccer or hockey. It has to do with not putting a good product entertaining product on the field. I can remember when the Cardinals and the Rams both had sellouts the same day.

[sikeston bulldog2]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

Per Google. St. Louis Metropolitan Area:
Overall Growth:
The St. Louis metropolitan area has seen overall population growth over the last half-century, despite the city's decline.
Recent Metro Area Population:
In 2023, the St. Louis metro area had a population of 2,811,927 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Metro Area Growth:
The metro area's population has increased by almost 12 percent over the last half-century, according to FOX


The cards have historically drawn from more that just stl city and county. This isn’t about a bump or drop in stl population. This is about awful and clueless ownership and management.

This, well stated.

The whole game day experience is a young man’s game. Hotel- get up early to eat their free breakfast. Rush around. Traffic. Parking. Hot. 95 degrees. Long walk. Seats in sun. Money. People everywhere. Then, got to do it all again when it’s over.

A ten hour commitment. You gotta want it when you age.

This too has a play into attendance.

[BrummerStealsHome]

17th in attendance. Interesting how the Rockies are having one of the worst seasons in MLB history, yet are 15th in attendance (ahead of the Cardinals).

[butsir01]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

[sikeston bulldog2]

What could possibly be the reason folks aren't going to the games? Hmmmmmm.

Age.

[Bomber1]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

Makes you wonder what really went on behind hackgate. It’s hard for me to believe that a longtime successful businessman such as Dewitt couldn’t see for a mile away what Mo was steamrolling this ridiculously proud and envied organization to complete irrelevance. Unless him and his son just got as caught up in their egos as Mo has been you have to wonder if they kept Mo around because they had no other choice in the matter

HackGate is the sole reason John Mozeliak is still employed by the St. Louis Cardinals.

[RichieRichSTL]

In the size market St. Louis is ( St. Louis declining population ) , acquiring pricey free agents will be limited. They go to the big revenue teams.
One thing that the organzation can do (and they are starting with Bloom/Cerfolio this past year ) is to beef up their player development side and technology end ( labs, anayltics , scouting , etc. ). Getting improved players from within may be a key . Unless a 'salary cap' is instituted thru the new CBA, the Cardinals will remain in the 'have nots' category.

[nonsense]

DeWitt allowed the brand to die and then his POBO and son effectively blamed fans for it. DeWitt prioritized loyalty to Mozeliak over just about everything else while Mozeliak took the franchise in the wrong direction for a decade+.

In other words, full circle, back to the early 90s when the brewery owned the team.
Fans have proven time and again, that they WILL support this team in a way above and beyond the market size. All they ask is you a) put together a playoff worthy team and when the team looks like it could be special, you dont ignore it to ensure you have at least mediocre teams for the next 5 years. b) you level with the fans. The Cardinals knew they weren't quite there in the late 90s, but they at least tried to put together an exciting team.

The message they've been sending since the winter of 2014/2015 is they are more geared towards putting together a team they can pass off as competitive. Their vision since 2015 is that they don't have a vision. Just making sure they have enough talent to be competitive and hoping to sneak into an expanded playoffs. So we get half measures:

Heyward vs power

Waino vs Scherzer/Waino, with built in protection if one goes down

Waino/Holliday injured much of season, broken down Brandon Moss & no backup for Waino

Win now move in Ozuna, then dont complete the job

Bring in Goldschmidt/Arenado and dont build a team around team.

Get rid of MM and talk about not meeting expectations. When Schildt proves successful in spite of poorly constructed teams, bring in a completely untested bench coach to replace him. When Oli fails, ignore 2018 statements of expected standards.

Simply no vision, except to ensure a certain profit level without too much risk and hope to strike gold.