Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[JohnnyMO]

It’s safe to say you’d all suck at the job. Also, My dad could beat your dads in a fight

[Goldfan]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

[JDW]

And when you're buying "lesser" FA's, some are going to under perform, with Fowler as an example. Mistakes like that cost you dearly, not only in dollars, but also possibly in blocking playing time for prospects, with Arozarena as an example, which can lead to never giving him fair opportunity to show what he can do at the MLB level.
In the above example, you significantly overpaid for a player when a cost controlled prospect could have instead potentially grossly outperformed the expensive FA. Maybe the playoffs in (I think 2018) go different w/o DF in there stinking it up.

[Cranny]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

[Cranny]

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.



The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

And with all those stars, they won 83 games? LOL. Were they predicted to win the World Series that year? Don't think so.

How about 2011? What were their odds to win the WS that year? Bleacher Report had them at 15-1, which was 7th best in MLB. Pinnacle had them with a 4.3% chance.

People don't seem to want to recognize that the Cardinals were very fortunate to win in 2006 and 2011. The name of the game was to get into the playoffs and anything can happen. Just like now.

[Talkin' Baseball]

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

And with all those stars, they won 83 games? LOL. Were they predicted to win the World Series that year? Don't think so.

How about 2011? What were their odds to win the WS that year? Bleacher Report had them at 15-1, which was 7th best in MLB. Pinnacle had them with a 4.3% chance.

People don't seem to want to recognize that the Cardinals were very fortunate to win in 2006 and 2011. The name of the game was to get into the playoffs and anything can happen. Just like now.

This will be my last post on this thread because you just like to argue. You can be willfully ignorant if you like. That they made it through those playoffs to the World Series had more to do with the quality of their roster than good fortune.

[Ike Hammett]

Who gives a rats patoot! I will match your FWAR nonsense stats with the Dodgers are the Champs, the Yankees are the AL pennant winners and the Mets have the best record in the league. Their fans show up have tons of fun singing and dancing rooting for their clubs, they get the big name guys that want to play there, the cities are thriving and are world class in everything.

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.

The Cards and St. Louis can get that too, they have had it in the past. A turn towards being Cleveland or Milwaukee is the wrong direction dude. I respect those clubs and could be a fan of that, but that's not what these people want. You are posting about the top clubs of that style, if things don't work well or there are hiccups (which is common) the Cards could be the Pirates, Reds, White Sox, etc hoping to even have a .500 team. That's really no good.

The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

There is no way the Cardinals can afford that 70/30 model in 2025 on a $175, $180, etc. million payroll. The math just doesn't work.

To have a team that you expect to be a 92 win team - a solid postseason threat - you need a talent level of about 45 fWAR.

At best, if you are just buying talent from full market value veterans (your "real pros"), it costs you about $8 million per fWAR. So to just "buy" even 2/3 of your necessary talent (30 fWAR) would be expected to cost ~$240 million (30 fWAR x $8 million per fWAR). And then you still have to add another $20, $30, etc. million for your young players giving you the other 15 fWAR. So your model ends up with you needing about a $270 million payroll.

The Cardinals can afford to buy about 1/3 (15 fWAR) of their talent from "real pros", which will cost them about $120 million. Then the other 30 fWAR needs to come from cost controlled young players who combine to be paid $55-$60 million.

That's how the math works.

Exactly, mattmitch. Good post.

Yeah, his "70/30" model with the majority of the production coming from full market value "real pros" is basically what teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc. can afford to do with $270+ million payrolls.

When you get down to the Cardinals at $175-$180 million, it needs to be more like "33/67" with the majority of production coming from cost controlled young players.

When you get down to the payrolls of teams like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc., it has to be more like "20/80" or "10/90" in terms of how much young, cost controlled talent they need.

That's not what I have posted and not the reasoning and logic of the 70/30 belief I stated. Not all free agents need to be high paid big name guys. You make it seem like I want all Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr., Bobby Bonds and Ken Griffey Sr. were really good solid players too. We can be the Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, Yanks etc of the National League Central and hope Bobby Bonds can get hot and beat Barry. That is possible, has been proven and a great model for St. Louis. You can get 3 or 4 good players for 1 Juan Soto and go more with quantity Vs. Crazy spend on a 10th ranked payroll. Let's do that, it's better.

If you are having to buy your production from full market value FAs, you're still paying an average of $8 million per fWAR, even if you are buying lesser guys. No matter who you are signing, overall you still can't afford to have more than about 1/3 of your productivity (about 15 fWAR) from guys you are paying full market value for - even if that is multiple 2 fWAR guys you are paying ~$16 million a year.

If you are the Cardinals, you can spend about $120 million on full market value "real pros" - whether you spend that on 4, $30 million players or 8, $15 million players, you should still expect about 15 fWAR.

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for). Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out. The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model. You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

[Cranny]

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

And with all those stars, they won 83 games? LOL. Were they predicted to win the World Series that year? Don't think so.

How about 2011? What were their odds to win the WS that year? Bleacher Report had them at 15-1, which was 7th best in MLB. Pinnacle had them with a 4.3% chance.

People don't seem to want to recognize that the Cardinals were very fortunate to win in 2006 and 2011. The name of the game was to get into the playoffs and anything can happen. Just like now.

This will be my last post on this thread because you just like to argue. You can be willfully ignorant if you like. That they made it through those playoffs to the World Series had more to do with the quality of their roster than good fortune.

I like to argue? No. I just told you what the regular season wins were in 2006 and the odds of them winning the WS in 2011 according to pundits. That's not "arguing". It's just stating facts. You don't want to respond, I respect that. But it's because the facts speak for themselves.

[Goldfan]

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

And with all those stars, they won 83 games? LOL. Were they predicted to win the World Series that year? Don't think so.

How about 2011? What were their odds to win the WS that year? Bleacher Report had them at 15-1, which was 7th best in MLB. Pinnacle had them with a 4.3% chance.

People don't seem to want to recognize that the Cardinals were very fortunate to win in 2006 and 2011. The name of the game was to get into the playoffs and anything can happen. Just like now.

Do you remember the ‘06 team had a few injuries through that year…….
These recent subpar MO collections had no major injuries…..
And if you think ANY of MO’s team the last decade, and some had the opportunity, could win playoff series I’d like to sell you the Eads Bridge

[desertrat23]

And their payrolls allow them to afford to build championship teams in a way the Cardinals cannot.



The Cardinals cannot be consistently successful today trying to do what the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. do. They also can't simply do what they have done in the past because the economics have changed.

20, 30, etc. years ago, when the top players made 20x, 25x the ML minimum, it was a different economic environment. Now the top players are making 50x, 60x the ML minimum, and that changes everything.

Now teams with limited budgets have to be more and more invested in having 2/3 or 3/4 of their ML talent from young, cost controlled players. That's the only way they can amass enough talent to compete with what the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. can buy.

And "if things don't work well" they'll be a mediocre to bad team no matter what approach they take, so that is hardly an argument against any particular approach.

You're talking about changing the Cardinals classification from a top teir team to not one. WHAT KIND OF PLAN AND GM RUNS ON THAT PLATFORM? Come up with something better or yield to those who can. How about using your political connections to get some infrastructure money or a new TV deal worth big bucks? Getting some of your business contacts to up some sponsorship dough? Buying some "devil magik" from your fellow wannabe GMs? Show me some dazzle outside the box thinking worthy of being top wannabe GM dawg! Better go hit the gym to find a robberbarron heiress to get some free agents, get your buddy to be commissioner to level the economics, grease some agents to get some deals on underrated foreign players off the radar or something. Get creative with it.

From a payroll standpoint, the Cardinals aren't a top team and aren't going to be one in the foreseeable future.

The Cardinals have to figure out how they can be successful with a payroll that is probably between 10th and 15th in MLB pretty much every year.

Yelling about "doing something" isn't going to change that. It is just reality, and that is the reality any GM is going to have to work with.

The Cardinals have figured out how to be successful with that level of payroll or even a little better depending on the situation. Playing in the Cental is a decent advantage for smaller market teams. Just need a club that is extremely competitive and even favored to win the division, Cards can do that around 10th in payroll. I know we are not buying any Ohtani, Judge, Soto, Harper contracts. They can find good deals on Goldy, Nado, Contreras type guys and have competitive teams. When I hear Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa, I think second teir and not far off from Cincinnati, Miami, and Kansas City, Pittsburgh. That's a big NO! Get to the playoffs with a path to win some series if things go right.

I'm a big fan of the Mr. DeWitt model, believe Mr. Mo has worked it well and like the teams they have had for decades. If you keep playing guys like you suggest that you will have attendance like the Pirates, Royals, Reds, (who have good players and compete so im not bashing them but all these CT haters will and i can't defend back). Creating a downward spiral of sustained mediocrity or poor results. But whatever, if that's what makes everyone happy.

As I've said now more than once - the point would be to be like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay - in making an extremely high level of player development the foundation of your success, but to be able to do it BETTER because, having achieved that, the Cardinals then have more payroll flexibility to selectively add around that foundation.

The immediate problem has been that the Cardinals let their commitment to having a consistent high level of young, cost controlled players slip (as evidenced by how low they were in age 28 and under player productivity from 2021-2024). And now they have to make rebuilding that pipeline of talent a priority.

The Cardinals are better so far this year (5th in batter and 18th in pitcher fWAR for players age 28 and less), but still not good enough.

The Cardinals "recipe" can't be to be a "lite" version of the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, etc., but it can be to be a better version of Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, etc.

I don't want to be a jerk, I'm a nice guy. This is more of the crazy talk from people that have no idea what they are talking about. If you want development baseball move to Springfield or Memphis. Here in downtown St. Louis we play PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL, world class professional baseball by grown men with resumes and winning experience. We're playing for division titles, league titles, Championships and big bucks. We need solid professionals dude! Willson Contreras, Yadier Molina, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew Miller, Brendan Donovan, Andrew Kitteridge, Nolan Arenado. Sonny Gray types.

You can sprinkle in some younger not well established type players to see what they have, gain some experience, save some money etc. But, the huge problem with what you are talking about is, for every Matthew Liberatore you develop you have a Matthew Liberatore to develop. That means you might be looking at some 70 win seasons for a few years consistently before you get playoff teams. I'm okay with some growing pains as a realistic person but your 70/30 is reversed. 30% growing pains 70% real pro. If somebody sticks I'm all for it and will root for that but what Jordan Walker is doing is not a sustainable model. At least go find me a Corey Dickerson type to play while Walker develops in Memphis, at least go find me a JoJo Romero while Graceffo works it out. You dig?

Financial dynamics have changed. You have to rely on your system to develop good major leaguers, and several star players.

The financial dynamics have not changed. The "best fans in baseball" have. If they continued to show up 3+ million strong and really cared the team could still put together the same quality product they always have with this ownership. Mr. DeWitt the 3rd stated it very clear a while back when asked about the boycotting of the club so many haters were calling for. If you don't show up and support the team, you create a downward spiral. It's all on them Cranny. Yup, that great model might be dead now.

The financial dynamics have indeed changed, when the highest payroll is 3 times the size of the lowest payroll. The Cardinals will never have a payroll like the Dodgers, Mets, etc. So good players (and maybe an All Star player or 2) have to come out of your system. Simple as that.

The Cardinals have NEVER had the highest paid players…..I think the last one might have Been Ozzie??? Why do you constantly go to this false narrative that STL has competed with NY’s, LA’s, Philly or even Chicago…..in the last 50yrs they haven’t. And somehow they just can’t do it anymore. THEY NEVER HAVE.

Actually, you're right Goldfan. They never have been in the same league, but the gap has gotten a lot wider for big market teams vs. mid and small market teams. Everyone is aware of that. But somehow the Cardinals have done okay with the second most WS wins in history. Right?

And don't give me the last 10 years bunk. They had a least as good a shot in the playoff the last time around as they did in 2006. Goldy and Nado went in the tank.

I would say "You're kidding" but I know you are not. The 2006 team had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, Wainwright, Carpenter, and Co. That team had a better chance just by virtue of the horsepower on the roster than any team the Cardinals have put together in the past 10 years, regardless of record.

Exactly. That team had injury problems and was also coming off two back-to-back 100-win seasons. Pretending Mo’s coupon-clipping recent teams are in the same class as the 2006 team is asinine.

[Cranny]

Injuries or not, the 2006 team had 83 wins. All teams have injuries.

[mattmitchl44]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

[Ike Hammett]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

[MIDMOBIRDTWO]

Need co GM's. Shady and Cranny.

[mattmitchl44]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.