Question regarding the official scoring

[Red7]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Still, even Gorman scores easily.

[Whatashame]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.


2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.

Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.

Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...

I’m not disagreeing but the official scorer saw the play differently, that’s all. It doesn’t make him correct but it makes him right. IF the official scorer saw the play like you did he could have ruled the play differently but he didn’t. Apparently, he saw the play as a continuous action with Winn just continuing to run around third and beating the throw home this giving Burleson the RBI. He could have easily given the pitcher an error for the throw allowing Winn to score but saw the play differently.

The official scorer is there to decide how plays should be scored. It makes him right because he’s the final say, that’s all. MDT, if you had been the official scorer for the game you could have scored it how you saw it and that’s the way it would have been.

I will say MLB looks at these plays and it’s possible that there could be a scoring change but it’s not likely. Just one man’s opinion on how he saw the play but he was the guy in charge today.

[ScotchMIrish]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

Passed ball is treated like an error, while a WP is on the pitcher and not counted as an error. But if a pitcher makes 18 errors and all of those runs come around to score, they’d still be 0 ER.

Because ERA is a pitching stat not a fielding stat.

[Futuregm2]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

Passed ball is treated like an error, while a WP is on the pitcher and not counted as an error. But if a pitcher makes 18 errors and all of those runs come around to score, they’d still be 0 ER.

Because ERA is a pitching stat not a fielding stat.

And the whole point of ERA is that it’s “earned” by the pitcher. When a fielder is other than the pitcher that is something that they can’t control. But they can control how they field.

[ScotchMIrish]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

Passed ball is treated like an error, while a WP is on the pitcher and not counted as an error. But if a pitcher makes 18 errors and all of those runs come around to score, they’d still be 0 ER.

Because ERA is a pitching stat not a fielding stat.

And the whole point of ERA is that it’s “earned” by the pitcher. When a fielder is other than the pitcher that is something that they can’t control. But they can control how they field.

An therefore it impacts his fielding stat as it should.

[Melville]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Except it was not a shift.
It was the opposite of a shift.
A shift moves the defense toward where the batter is most likely to hit the ball.
In this instance, the Dodgers emptied the one place on the field N/A was most likely to hit the ball.
They were conceding left field exactly like a team concedes 2nd base: zero intention, zero effort, zero desire to make a play.
To be clear, I am not arguing against the strategy.
Nor am I arguing with the scorekeeper.
Simply pointing out the ridiculous inconsistency.
With zero question the game ended on defensive indifference - but N/A, his teammates, and the broadcasters went wild celebrating his "game winning hit".
It was no such thing.
It was a routine fly ball the Dodgers intentionally chose to not catch.

[Melville]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.


2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.

Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.

Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...

Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.

That isnt what happened at all.

It is precisely what happened.
Fantastic play on Winn's part.
It looked like the days of Willie and Ozzie.

[Melville]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Still, even Gorman scores easily.

Bases loaded, no outs.
Hernandez has a very good arm.
Medium fly ball.
Runner would not have been sent.

[Monsieur De Treville]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Still, even Gorman scores easily.

Bases loaded, no outs.
Hernandez has a very good arm.
Medium fly ball.
Runner would not have been sent.

1. It was not a medium fly ball.
2. Barrero is extremely fast.
3. Of course he would've been sent.

[Cardinals4Life]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.


2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.

Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.

Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...

Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.

That isnt what happened at all.

It is precisely what happened.
Fantastic play on Winn's part.
It looked like the days of Willie and Ozzie.

I was at the game.
Winn hardly hesitated; was running hard (terrific play on his part- agree).
Don't think the ball got past Freeman. Pulled him off a little, yes. Got past him? No, not at all.

[okcardfan]

I don't know how many of you will recall this, I was a little kid at the time. But in Gibby's 1.12 ERA year he was running neck and neck with Don Drysdale on a consecutive unearned runs for consecutive innings streak. I think it was something like 54 innings or something crazy like that. Anyway, it might have even been against the Dodgers, he gave up a run on a wild pitch and we ended up winning the game something like 7-1. The run was determined to be earned because of the official scorers call of WP and not PB. And his streak was history. Regardless, I believe Orel Hershhizer owns the streak now. And now...............You know the rest of the story. Paul Harvey,

Good Day!

Great recap from that stupendous 1968 season, one of the many memorable events that year. I recall that Gibson-Drysdale shutout-inning competition very clearly. Thanks for recounting it for me, as well as for the younger fans who never heard of that unequalled pitching duel in that season.

[illiniriles]

Thanks, Okie!. Sounds like you have a great memory, too! The very next year MLB lowered the mound I believe 6" because of Gibby's and other pitchers dominance. And, the discussion of a DH in the American league was brought up to combat lower attendance, increase offensive production, and keep some of the aging stars in the game whose defensive skills were in decline.

[Melville]

So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.

1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?

2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?

I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?

1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.


2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.

Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.

Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...

Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.

That isnt what happened at all.

It is precisely what happened.
Fantastic play on Winn's part.
It looked like the days of Willie and Ozzie.

I was at the game.
Winn hardly hesitated; was running hard (terrific play on his part- agree).
Don't think the ball got past Freeman. Pulled him off a little, yes. Got past him? No, not at all.

We are saying the same thing.
Winn slowed, did not come to a full stop, watched the play develop, and took off for home.
Yes, when the ball got away from Freeman, he took off full speed.

[Melville]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Still, even Gorman scores easily.

Bases loaded, no outs.
Hernandez has a very good arm.
Medium fly ball.
Runner would not have been sent.

1. It was not a medium fly ball.
2. Barrero is extremely fast.
3. Of course he would've been sent.

Yes, it was routine, medium fly ball.
Had LF Hernandez been normally positioned, he would have caught the ball moving forward in throwing position.
He has a very good arm.
With zero outs, it is extremely unlikely the team would have sent the runner.
They would not have wanted to run the risk of losing that advantage when 2 outs would have been remaining.
No chance they would have risked intentionally running into a DP with a tag play at home.
But again, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand:
N/A's "hit" was defensive indifference - and it is interesting MLB scores an uncontested stolen base one way but scores a much more obvious uncontested play (a completley empty LF) another way.
That is the topic of discussion.

[imyourhuckleberry]

Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.

It showed a single base on game day not a double.

If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.

Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.

Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Still, even Gorman scores easily.

Bases loaded, no outs.
Hernandez has a very good arm.
Medium fly ball.
Runner would not have been sent.

1. It was not a medium fly ball.
2. Barrero is extremely fast.
3. Of course he would've been sent.

Yes, it was routine, medium fly ball.
Had LF Hernandez been normally positioned, he would have caught the ball moving forward in throwing position.
He has a very good arm.
With zero outs, it is extremely unlikely the team would have sent the runner.
They would not have wanted to run the risk of losing that advantage when 2 outs would have been remaining.
No chance they would have risked intentionally running into a DP with a tag play at home.
But again, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand:
N/A's "hit" was defensive indifference - and it is interesting MLB scores an uncontested stolen base one way but scores a much more obvious uncontested play (a completley empty LF) another way.
That is the topic of discussion.

As usual, you are 100% incorrect. Anyone willing to watch the replay will clearly see you have no idea what you're talking about.

The ball bounced on the track well past where the seats jut out toward the outfield. If Hernandez would have been able to get that close to the wall, and if he was able to position himself into a good throwing angle before he caught it, there is still no way on earth he throws out Barrero from that distance.

[sp25]

I don't know how many of you will recall this, I was a little kid at the time. But in Gibby's 1.12 ERA year he was running neck and neck with Don Drysdale on a consecutive unearned runs for consecutive innings streak. I think it was something like 54 innings or something crazy like that. Anyway, it might have even been against the Dodgers, he gave up a run on a wild pitch and we ended up winning the game something like 7-1. The run was determined to be earned because of the official scorers call of WP and not PB. And his streak was history. Regardless, I believe Orel Hershhizer owns the streak now. And now...............You know the rest of the story. Paul Harvey,

Good Day!

And Gibson always argued that McCarver should have been charged with a passed ball!