Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.
2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.
Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.
Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.
In which case it would've been a Sac Fly as it was plenty deep enough (unless Clemente is playing out in left).
But that is like saying a player earned a stolen base if there had been a throw made and an infielder positioned.
If a runner is not credited with a SB when the defense has zero intention of attempting a play, why would a hitter be credited with a hit when the defense has made an even more obvious decision of not attempting a play?
There was no defender within 100 feet of N/A routine fly ball - but there are certainly defenders within 30 feet of 2nd base when that base in conceded to a runner.
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
Curious scoring here. If Arenado hit a home run, he would be credited with a homer. If he had hit a ball to the gap to score the run from 3rd, he would have been credited with a single.
But his hit definitely bounced into the stands. Why we he not be credited with a double? Perhaps it will be changed.
Arenado didnt touch 2nd base. He was mobbed going around first and didn't make it to 2nd. If he had made it to 2nd it wouldn't have been a double
It would be the same if he hit a home run and didn't step on home plate. It wouldn't have counted as a homer.
Ah, not touching second makes sense. Thanks also to Monsieur and Melville for pointing this out. I do remember seeing Pages in the background and was hoping he had touched second. We don't need any Fred Merkle "boners" here (look it up, if needed)!
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
Curious scoring here. If Arenado hit a home run, he would be credited with a homer. If he had hit a ball to the gap to score the run from 3rd, he would have been credited with a single.
But his hit definitely bounced into the stands. Why we he not be credited with a double? Perhaps it will be changed.
Maybe he never touched second? On the homer scenario, guys always round the bases and touch home plate...
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
Curious scoring here. If Arenado hit a home run, he would be credited with a homer. If he had hit a ball to the gap to score the run from 3rd, he would have been credited with a single.
But his hit definitely bounced into the stands. Why we he not be credited with a double? Perhaps it will be changed.
He never touched second.
The game ended by him reaching 1B and the runner touching home.
Hard to award a base once the game is over.
Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.
2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.
Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.
Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...
Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.
Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.
2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.
Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.
Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...
Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.
On further review, Winn broke for the plate once the pitcher started his throw to first, not because of an errant throw. Agree, a clean play at 1st might have ended with him thrown out at home, but as you say, the scorer gave him credit.
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
Curious scoring here. If Arenado hit a home run, he would be credited with a homer. If he had hit a ball to the gap to score the run from 3rd, he would have been credited with a single.
But his hit definitely bounced into the stands. Why we he not be credited with a double? Perhaps it will be changed.
Arenado didnt touch 2nd base. He was mobbed going around first and didn't make it to 2nd. If he had made it to 2nd it wouldn't have been a double
It would be the same if he hit a home run and didn't step on home plate. It wouldn't have counted as a homer.
Rules that don’t exit in men’s league softball. Lol
I don't know how many of you will recall this, I was a little kid at the time. But in Gibby's 1.12 ERA year he was running neck and neck with Don Drysdale on a consecutive unearned runs for consecutive innings streak. I think it was something like 54 innings or something crazy like that. Anyway, it might have even been against the Dodgers, he gave up a run on a wild pitch and we ended up winning the game something like 7-1. The run was determined to be earned because of the official scorers call of WP and not PB. And his streak was history. Regardless, I believe Orel Hershhizer owns the streak now. And now...............You know the rest of the story. Paul Harvey,
Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.
2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.
Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.
Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...
Unless it got STUCK in his pocket. You ever try getting a baseball outta that back pocket? Not as easy as going in!
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
After the game on Kmox it said he got rewarded a double because it hopped the wall though he never tagged 2nd base as only single was necessary. Kmox said they changed it.
Then on ESPN scores it has this confusing headline
Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
WP are earned runs. PB are unearned runs.
There was no error on the play because the ball deflected off the Pitcher's body and he was likely to beat it out, which he did. Would have been a great play to get him.
1. Makes no sense...you earn a run on a WP but you don't earn one on a PB? Oh well...that's baseball. I also bet Pages blocks that ball 9 out of 10 times.
2. No...I get that part...it's obviously an infield hit. No doubt. But the throw pulled Freeman way off the bag, allowing Winn to score from second. Why wasn't it ruled a hit and a throwing error allowing Winn to score?
Errors and unearned runs are meant to reflect that the runs were not a result ofnthe pitchers pitching(although pitcher fielding errors are still sins by the pitcher but notbpart of his pitching) a passed ball is an error by the catcher and thus not the pitchers fault so they dont count against his era just likenany other fielding error. A wild pitch though is considered a fault of the pitcher and is part of his pitching so why would you think that shouldnt be counted against his era? I dont believe any battwrs get an rbi fornit as they shouldnt, but it absolutely should count against era as its a part of pitching.
Now many wild pitches id argue are stoppable and should be passed balls, but thats a different argument.
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.
In which case it would've been a Sac Fly as it was plenty deep enough (unless Clemente is playing out in left).
But that is like saying a player earned a stolen base if there had been a throw made and an infielder positioned.
If a runner is not credited with a SB when the defense has zero intention of attempting a play, why would a hitter be credited with a hit when the defense has made an even more obvious decision of not attempting a play?
There was no defender within 100 feet of N/A routine fly ball - but there are certainly defenders within 30 feet of 2nd base when that base in conceded to a runner.
Well, it's a hit because it's the oldest play in baseball...Wee Willie Keeler...Hit 'em where they ain't! That's what Nado did.
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.
Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.
Monsieur De Treville wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:52 pm
So for those smarter than myself, could you please attempt to explain the official scoring on a couple of plays.
1. Helsley is charged with a WP and the runner scores from third on a strikeout. Why wouldn't that be an unearned run? Is not a WP or PB scored the same as an error?
2. Burly mashes an infield single off the pitcher. The pitcher makes a poor throw to first allowing a base runner to score from second. Why is Burly awarded an RBI on this play? Should it have not been scored a hit and a throwing error allowing the runner to score from second? I'd imagine it's somewhat rare for a hitter to drive in a runner from second on an infield single with no error charged?
I'm sure there are good reasons for these decisions, but I can't figure them out. Anyone?
1) A WP and a PB are scored differently in this situation. A WP is considered the pitchers fault so the run is considered an earned run. If the pitch had been ruled a PB, that would have been considered the catcher’s fault and the run would have been ruled an unearned run. Strictly how the official scorer sees the event.
2) Burly was credited with an infield hit AND an RBI because the play was viewed as a continuous play as viewed by the official scorer. The official scorer could have ruled that the throw caused a separate event which allowed Winn to score but in this case the official scorer viewed the play as a continuous play and Winn’s hustle allowed him to score over a bad throw from the pitcher. It’s truly just the judgment of the official scorer working the game. It could have been viewed differently and if you have paid attention you have seen similar plays viewed differently. It’s just how the official scorer decides to view the plays in question.
Okay...I get the first point. It doesn't make sense because when a pitcher makes an error and a run scores, it's an unearned run. But okay...I get it.
Not sure about the second play. By my thinking if the pitcher makes an accurate throw or puts the ball in his pocket, Winn doesn't score. But again...that's baseball...
Winn had already rounded third and was still advancing (albeit hesitantly) when the ball got past the 1B.
Had he continued on a clean play Winn likely would have been out - but perhaps the scorer did not want to assume an out would have been the only outcome.
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2025 16:57 pm
Arenado got a double because it was a ground rule double they said on the radio. Normally just a single so it must have hopped over the wall.
It showed a single base on game day not a double.
If MLB was consistent in applying rules and principles, it should have gone down as reaching first base due to defensive indifference.
Really, zero difference between taking second base with no throw from the catcher and no infielder covering the bag - and a ball being allowed to drop into LF as a result of no defender attempting to make a play.
That ball is an out 100 times out of a hundred if a defender is standing anywhere in LF.
Couldn’t that be said on all hits against the shift? As Wee Willie Keeler once said “Hit’em where they ain’t”. The Dodgers strategy made sense. Arenado’s power has always been to LF. Any ball hit into the air to LF would most likely be deep enough to score the run. If Arenado hits it anywhere else, it’s unlikely it scores a run. Turns out they were right. Gorman scores easily on that fly ball.
Barrero was pinch-running for Gorman...he's very fast and could've trotted home on that fly ball.
