Jacob deGrom is still Jacob deGrom

[An Old Friend]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Yeah, but with deGrom, you’ve already thrown out the importance of innings. Wagner, inning for inning, is obviously one of the best ever.

[rbirules]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Relievers have different bars to clear than starters for the HOF. That's just the way it is.

And I think that's a horrible precedent that was set by the voters.

[rbirules]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Yeah, but with deGrom, you’ve already thrown out the importance of innings. Wagner, inning for inning, is obviously one of the best ever.

I'm saying the position is pitcher. If you let in dominant pitchers with very few innings (closers), slightly less dominant players with shortened careers (koufax), then why not a pitcher that splits that difference? I think pitching in general is heading this way.

[imadangman]

I guess seeing this start to the season by DeGrom lets you know he still may have a couple more solid years left. Probably will be in line for the hall.

[rockondlouie]

Hall of Famer ala the Sandy Koufax route?

43.9 WAR

228 GS
88 - 58
2.51 ERA
2.62 FiP
0.99 WHiP

ROY
2 CY's (6 top 10 finishes)
4 time all -star

I say "Yes"

Me personally, I'd rather include players that were absolutely dominant for short to moderate periods of time rather than "good" for a long period.

deGrom isn't quite on Koufax's level because the IP was much lower.

However, my personal opinion on the HOF is that the position is "pitcher" not "starter". If Billy Wagner and his historic strike out rate is in the HOF then a SP that dominated the league to historic levels, even if for a short period of time, should also be in, or at least considered.

I have less problem with deGrom being in the HOF than Baines.

Only mentioned Koufax because he's the MLB standard we use for a player who had a Hall of Fame career shortened by injury but anyone who knows baseball knows was/is a Hall of Famer, not as a pure Koufax v deGrom comp.

And Baines is in no way, shape or form a Hall of Famer.

Except for the fact that Baines is, in fact, in the hall of fame.

Yes, I was just implying that deGrom's totals, including WAR, aren't as high as Koufax because pitchers don't compile as many innings now as they did 60 years ago.

In name, thanks to TLR

[Bomber1]

88-58, 2.51 ERA and just 1,425 innings pitched and he gets in because he got two Cy Youngs, placing in the top three in voting three times?

What do you do with the pitchers who had great seasons, but a meager amount of total wins and innings in the first 79 years of baseball when there was no Cy Young Award??? You gonna put Smokey Joe Wood or Jack Coombs in the HOF too? How about Urban Shocker or Jim Bagby. Or even those when Cy Young Awards were given. Bret Saberhagen? He's got two Cy Young and three top three finishes like DeGrom. How about David Cone?

Does Tim Lincecum get in?

Exactly.

Or Johan Santana?

[Futuregm2]

88-58, 2.51 ERA and just 1,425 innings pitched and he gets in because he got two Cy Youngs, placing in the top three in voting three times?

What do you do with the pitchers who had great seasons, but a meager amount of total wins and innings in the first 79 years of baseball when there was no Cy Young Award??? You gonna put Smokey Joe Wood or Jack Coombs in the HOF too? How about Urban Shocker or Jim Bagby. Or even those when Cy Young Awards were given. Bret Saberhagen? He's got two Cy Young and three top three finishes like DeGrom. How about David Cone?

Does Tim Lincecum get in?

Exactly.

Or Johan Santana?

Much better example than Lincecum.

[An Old Friend]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Yeah, but with deGrom, you’ve already thrown out the importance of innings. Wagner, inning for inning, is obviously one of the best ever.

I'm saying the position is pitcher. If you let in dominant pitchers with very few innings (closers), slightly less dominant players with shortened careers (koufax), then why not a pitcher that splits that difference? I think pitching in general is heading this way.

I think it immensely lowers the bar if we’re talking about inducting a starting pitcher who hasn’t even won 100 games in his career.

Pat Hentgen has the same number of 5+ bWAR seasons as deGrom and 40+ more wins. Brady Anderson, too, and he had a 50 HR season. And Luis Gonzalez, also owner of 3 5+ bWAR seasons and a 57 HR banger.

[An Old Friend]

88-58, 2.51 ERA and just 1,425 innings pitched and he gets in because he got two Cy Youngs, placing in the top three in voting three times?

What do you do with the pitchers who had great seasons, but a meager amount of total wins and innings in the first 79 years of baseball when there was no Cy Young Award??? You gonna put Smokey Joe Wood or Jack Coombs in the HOF too? How about Urban Shocker or Jim Bagby. Or even those when Cy Young Awards were given. Bret Saberhagen? He's got two Cy Young and three top three finishes like DeGrom. How about David Cone?

Does Tim Lincecum get in?

Exactly.

Or Johan Santana?

Much better example than Lincecum.

Yep. Santana has 50 more wins than deGrom and 5 top-5 Cy Young seasons to deGrom’s 3.

deGrom is fantastic and super talented. There is NO hall of fame resume, though.

[Talkin' Baseball]

88-58, 2.51 ERA and just 1,425 innings pitched and he gets in because he got two Cy Youngs, placing in the top three in voting three times?

What do you do with the pitchers who had great seasons, but a meager amount of total wins and innings in the first 79 years of baseball when there was no Cy Young Award??? You gonna put Smokey Joe Wood or Jack Coombs in the HOF too? How about Urban Shocker or Jim Bagby. Or even those when Cy Young Awards were given. Bret Saberhagen? He's got two Cy Young and three top three finishes like DeGrom. How about David Cone?

Does Tim Lincecum get in?

Exactly.

Or Johan Santana?

Much better example than Lincecum.

Lincecum has 2 CY's

[rbirules]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Yeah, but with deGrom, you’ve already thrown out the importance of innings. Wagner, inning for inning, is obviously one of the best ever.

I'm saying the position is pitcher. If you let in dominant pitchers with very few innings (closers), slightly less dominant players with shortened careers (koufax), then why not a pitcher that splits that difference? I think pitching in general is heading this way.

I think it immensely lowers the bar if we’re talking about inducting a starting pitcher who hasn’t even won 100 games in his career.

Pat Hentgen has the same number of 5+ bWAR seasons as deGrom and 40+ more wins. Brady Anderson, too, and he had a 50 HR season. And Luis Gonzalez, also owner of 3 5+ bWAR seasons and a 57 HR banger.

Again, the position is "pitcher" not "starting pitcher" or "reliever", those are roles, not positions.

We've already accepted that many pitchers who are failed starting pitchers turned into relievers and do very well in that role are allowed into the hall of fame. Why can't we allow dominant starting pitchers that had trouble staying healthy but still pitched more innings than those relievers into the hall?

Once we get past Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer and Grienke we're probably not going to see any more workhorse SPs. Maybe Cole.

fWAR:
Hentgen - 23.7
deGrom - 44.3

ERA:
Hentgen - 4.32
deGrom - 2.51

FIP:
Hentgen - 4.73
deGrom - 2.62

K%:
Hentgen - 14.5%
deGrom - 30.9%

SPs barely go 5-6 IP any more, which makes it very difficult to rack up win totals, and wins was already a pretty bad stat to use to judge SPs about 10 years before deGrom started his career.

deGrom will likely be around 47 fWAR at the end of this season. If he sticks around a few more years he likely gets to 50-55 fWAR, with an outside shot of getting 55-60 which would be enough to get him into consideration anyway. If he has one of the best ERA+s in history and is around 55 fWAR for his career, I think he has a strong case.

Hentgen has one 4+ fWAR season, 6.0 fWAR in 1996. deGrom has seasons of 4.1, 4.9, 4.9, 6.9, and 9.0 fWAR.

Using RA9-WAR Hentgen has seasons of 4.9, 8.5, and 6.2. While deGrom has seasons of 5.2 ,9.5, 7.5, 5.0, and 2.2 thus far this year (on pace for 6.6).

[Futuregm2]

88-58, 2.51 ERA and just 1,425 innings pitched and he gets in because he got two Cy Youngs, placing in the top three in voting three times?

What do you do with the pitchers who had great seasons, but a meager amount of total wins and innings in the first 79 years of baseball when there was no Cy Young Award??? You gonna put Smokey Joe Wood or Jack Coombs in the HOF too? How about Urban Shocker or Jim Bagby. Or even those when Cy Young Awards were given. Bret Saberhagen? He's got two Cy Young and three top three finishes like DeGrom. How about David Cone?

Does Tim Lincecum get in?

Exactly.

Or Johan Santana?

Much better example than Lincecum.

Lincecum has 2 CY's

Lincecum had 4 seasons with a sub 4 ERA in his career. He had a 19.9 bWAR for his career

DeGrom has 6 seasons with 20+ starts and a sub 4 ERA and 3 more with 10+ starts and a sub 4 ERA. He’s never had an ERA over 4 for any period of time in his career. He has 44 bWAR in his career as of right now.

Santana had 9 seasons with a sub 4 ERA in his career. He had a 51.1 bWAR for his career

Again, Santana is a much better/closer example to deGrom than Lincecum is.

[rockondlouie]

Good conversations, I like the Santana and Lincecum comps to deGrom:

deGrom
228 CS
2.51 ERA
2.62 FiP
0.99 WHiP
10.9 SO9
44 bWAR
ROY
2 CYA's
4 time AS

Santana
284 GS/360 G
3.20 ERA
3.44 FiP
1.13 WHiP
8.8 SO9
51.1 bWAR
2 CYA's
4 time AS
*Only received 2.4% of the votes on his one and only time on the Hall of Fame ballot

Lincecum
270 GS/278 G
3.74 ERA
3.75 FiP
1.29 WHiP
9.3 SO9
19.9 bWAR
2 CYA's
4 time AS
*Only received 2.3% of the votes on his one and only time on the Hall of Fame ballot

deGrom's career ERA, FiP, WHiP and SO9 are superior to Santana's and Lincecum, his ERA & FiP & WHiP are dramatically superior.

deGrom (IMO) was the superior pitcher and the only thing that would keep him from being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer is his injury history, I still think he gets in while the other two had no chance.

[An Old Friend]

Is Billy Wagner or Lee Smith a better pitcher than deGrom? If I had my pick starting a team i take deGrom every time, injuries and all.

Mariano Rivera is the only pitcher in baseball history to have a better adjusted ERA+ than Wagner’s 187.

Smith’s was 132.

deGrom has a 156 ERA+ in 1425 IP. Wagner pitched 903 innings.

Yeah, but with deGrom, you’ve already thrown out the importance of innings. Wagner, inning for inning, is obviously one of the best ever.

I'm saying the position is pitcher. If you let in dominant pitchers with very few innings (closers), slightly less dominant players with shortened careers (koufax), then why not a pitcher that splits that difference? I think pitching in general is heading this way.

I think it immensely lowers the bar if we’re talking about inducting a starting pitcher who hasn’t even won 100 games in his career.

Pat Hentgen has the same number of 5+ bWAR seasons as deGrom and 40+ more wins. Brady Anderson, too, and he had a 50 HR season. And Luis Gonzalez, also owner of 3 5+ bWAR seasons and a 57 HR banger.

Again, the position is "pitcher" not "starting pitcher" or "reliever", those are roles, not positions.

We've already accepted that many pitchers who are failed starting pitchers turned into relievers and do very well in that role are allowed into the hall of fame. Why can't we allow dominant starting pitchers that had trouble staying healthy but still pitched more innings than those relievers into the hall?

Once we get past Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer and Grienke we're probably not going to see any more workhorse SPs. Maybe Cole.

fWAR:
Hentgen - 23.7
deGrom - 44.3

ERA:
Hentgen - 4.32
deGrom - 2.51

FIP:
Hentgen - 4.73
deGrom - 2.62

K%:
Hentgen - 14.5%
deGrom - 30.9%

SPs barely go 5-6 IP any more, which makes it very difficult to rack up win totals, and wins was already a pretty bad stat to use to judge SPs about 10 years before deGrom started his career.

deGrom will likely be around 47 fWAR at the end of this season. If he sticks around a few more years he likely gets to 50-55 fWAR, with an outside shot of getting 55-60 which would be enough to get him into consideration anyway. If he has one of the best ERA+s in history and is around 55 fWAR for his career, I think he has a strong case.

Hentgen has one 4+ fWAR season, 6.0 fWAR in 1996. deGrom has seasons of 4.1, 4.9, 4.9, 6.9, and 9.0 fWAR.

Using RA9-WAR Hentgen has seasons of 4.9, 8.5, and 6.2. While deGrom has seasons of 5.2 ,9.5, 7.5, 5.0, and 2.2 thus far this year (on pace for 6.6).

Hentgen wasn't intended as a serious comp, sorry to send you down that rabbit hole. I thought you'd pick up that my argument was that even a bum like Pat Hentgen has as many 5+ bWAR seasons as Jacob deGrom.

I'm NOT arguing that deGrom isn't elite. I'm saying he hasn't put together a career resume worthy of enshrinement.

I gather your argument is more so that no relievers should be in the hall of fame even as their role has gained immensely in importance over the last few decades.

Disclosure: I'm pretty tired of the devaluation of wins when looking at starting pitchers. deGrom is just 45th in baseball in wins in the past 15 seasons. Guys immediately ahead of him in wins include Ivan Nova, Mike Leake, Bartolo Colon, Jordan Zimmerman, Jose Berrios... Stephen Strasburg has TWENTY more wins in less innings pitched than deGrom. He might not catch Wade Miley or JA Happ.

I wish we'd stop pretending that wins don't matter.

[smilinjoefission]

No way DeGrom gets in with those numbers, just hasn't pitched enough, not even close, but then again The Eck is in basically having only a couple really good starting seasons and a couple really good closer seasons.

[An Old Friend]

No way DeGrom gets in with those numbers, just hasn't pitched enough, not even close, but then again The Eck is in basically having only a couple really good starting seasons and a couple really good closer seasons.

Eckersley threw more than double the innings that deGrom has and spent his first full DECADE in the majors as a solid starting pitcher before spending his SECOND DECADE in the majors as one of the league's top closers.

That's a strange example to take a shot at.