Trade Kyrou or Not?

[STL fan in MN]

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Well that’s just not true.

Obviously each draft is unique and there’s exceptions to the rule in both directions all the time but when you plot many year of data together there’s no denying the top of the draft is where the value is.

So you are saying that there are no stars taken out of the top 10 in almost every draft?
You also are saying that drafting in the top 3 guarantees you future success. Nail Yakapov was never close to being a star.
How many top 3 picks do the Dallas Stars have compared to the Sabres or Blackhawks? If you think that the only way to get good players is to draft early….I politely disagree.

I’m not saying either one of those things actually. I’m simply showing you the math. Obviously late round gems come along every once in a while and obviously sometimes high picks bust but my point was that “For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.” is a ridiculously false statement.

[seattleblue]

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Well that’s just not true.

Obviously each draft is unique and there’s exceptions to the rule in both directions all the time but when you plot many year of data together there’s no denying the top of the draft is where the value is.

So you are saying that there are no stars taken out of the top 10 in almost every draft?
You also are saying that drafting in the top 3 guarantees you future success. Nail Yakapov was never close to being a star.
How many top 3 picks do the Dallas Stars have compared to the Sabres or Blackhawks? If you think that the only way to get good players is to draft early….I politely disagree.

He is obviously not claiming that there are no stars to be found outside the top 10
And he is obviously not saying drafting in the top 3 guarantees you success.
That is spectacularly poor logic and everything you build off of it is invalid

[theograce]

That is spectacularly poor logic and everything you build off of it is invalid

That guy doesn’t get the sport and gets mad when you try and teach.

[Bubble4427]

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Well that’s just not true.

Obviously each draft is unique and there’s exceptions to the rule in both directions all the time but when you plot many year of data together there’s no denying the top of the draft is where the value is.

So you are saying that there are no stars taken out of the top 10 in almost every draft?
You also are saying that drafting in the top 3 guarantees you future success. Nail Yakapov was never close to being a star.
How many top 3 picks do the Dallas Stars have compared to the Sabres or Blackhawks? If you think that the only way to get good players is to draft early….I politely disagree.

I’m not saying either one of those things actually. I’m simply showing you the math. Obviously late round gems come along every once in a while and obviously sometimes high picks bust but my point was that “For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.” is a ridiculously false statement.

If you were to take the last 10 drafts and collect the top three picks taken overall in each draft….you are saying that you would have more stars than if you take all of the other players drafted after the first 10 picks?
I seriously doubt it. I wonder how many of. Those 60 that were drafted never amounted to anything?
Just wondering, but It’s not important enough to me to look it up.

[skilles]

I'll do a few years by points but some of them won't tell the whole story as some of the picks were d that turned out great but obviously still don't out score the games top scoring forwards.

2015 top 3 scorers were picked 1,4,10
2014 were 3,29,79
2013 were 1,3,5
2012 were 11,17,18
2011 were 58,7,3
2010 were 2,1,7
2009 were 1,3,33
2008 were 1,15,22
2007 were 1,129,7
2006 were 22,4,5
2005 were 1,11,44
2004 were 1,2,5
2003 were 205,2,45
2002 were 1,54,24
2001 were 2,1,55
2000 were 2,28,2
1999 were 3,2,210
1998 were 1,64,171
1997 were 1,2,12
1996 were 35,24,56
1995 were 11,7,18

Thats 25 in the top 3 and 28 from 11-the end of the draft and 9 from 4-10 Thats a pretty incredible stat.

Still a lot of great players after 10 but there is more to it than that, guessing who they are going to be after 10 gets much harder.

Pretty fair to say half the top scorers come from the first 3 picks.

48 in the first round out of 60

[a smell of green grass]

What is the value of Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, and Brett Hull to St Louis? Are you comfortable with NEVER AGAIN having an exceptional NHL player representing St Louis? I want one for St Louis, and I want to increase my odds of getting one. I care about that MORE than I care about getting to the playoffs and losing in Round 1.

-Initially signed and scouted as a pitcher
-13th round pick
-6th round pick, acquired via trade

Did this just fly over his head or he has no response?

So the 3 players he cites as "models" for the blues to alter their path and go find are:

Musial - signed as a pitcher took 3 years to make it to majors.

AP - a 13th round draft choice. Hockey has no such lowly position.

Hull - 177th pick by Calgary who traded him.

hahahaha....such fine examples for tanking to get talent and championships.

I'm not taking a side in your dispute with the OP but the three players you mentioned are examples of extreme good fortune for St. Louis. They are the epitome of the adage that an elite player can be found or acquired by any means. It's like the argument that if a team gets to the playoffs they can win the Cup regardless of how good they really are. These are a extreme exceptions to the rule and in no way should be used as a strategy for building a sports team. I suppose it's true even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Look around the NHL. The superstars were selected TOP 5 because they were exceptional since childhood.

Here in St Louis, we worry and fret about "losing Kyrou". He is both our superstar and our excuse magnet. He just went 0 for 48 in the playoffs, and the fans are anxiously awaiting Army's next great find in the later portion of the draft.

We entered the playoffs to supposedly battle that losing culture, and what did we accomplish? We hung a big fat albatross loss around our neck that fans will still be talking about 10 years from now, and Kyrou REMOVED ALL DOUBT that he is soft. Good luck trading Kyrou now. Teams want players that step up in the playoffs, not vanish.

[Bubble4427]

What is the value of Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, and Brett Hull to St Louis? Are you comfortable with NEVER AGAIN having an exceptional NHL player representing St Louis? I want one for St Louis, and I want to increase my odds of getting one. I care about that MORE than I care about getting to the playoffs and losing in Round 1.

-Initially signed and scouted as a pitcher
-13th round pick
-6th round pick, acquired via trade

Did this just fly over his head or he has no response?

So the 3 players he cites as "models" for the blues to alter their path and go find are:

Musial - signed as a pitcher took 3 years to make it to majors.

AP - a 13th round draft choice. Hockey has no such lowly position.

Hull - 177th pick by Calgary who traded him.

hahahaha....such fine examples for tanking to get talent and championships.

I'm not taking a side in your dispute with the OP but the three players you mentioned are examples of extreme good fortune for St. Louis. They are the epitome of the adage that an elite player can be found or acquired by any means. It's like the argument that if a team gets to the playoffs they can win the Cup regardless of how good they really are. These are a extreme exceptions to the rule and in no way should be used as a strategy for building a sports team. I suppose it's true even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Look around the NHL. The superstars were selected TOP 5 because they were exceptional since childhood.

Here in St Louis, we worry and fret about "losing Kyrou". He is both our superstar and our excuse magnet. He just went 0 for 48 in the playoffs, and the fans are anxiously awaiting Army's next great find in the later portion of the draft.

We entered the playoffs to supposedly battle that losing culture, and what did we accomplish? We hung a big fat albatross loss around our neck that fans will still be talking about 10 years from now, and Kyrou REMOVED ALL DOUBT that he is soft. Good luck trading Kyrou now. Teams want players that step up in the playoffs, not vanish.

I guess Winnipeg should have tanked. Any team that loses in the first round should tank.
They don't have any superstars.
Dallas doesn't have any superstars, they should tank too.
Lucky for Chicago they tanked for Bedard....I hope they enjoy this years long playoff run after nearly a decade of being (bleep).
Same with Buffalo and San Jose.

You have no clue what you are talking about. You have become the lying punchline on this forum.
Your words carry little weight with me or anyone else on here.

[netboy65]

What is the value of Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, and Brett Hull to St Louis? Are you comfortable with NEVER AGAIN having an exceptional NHL player representing St Louis? I want one for St Louis, and I want to increase my odds of getting one. I care about that MORE than I care about getting to the playoffs and losing in Round 1.

-Initially signed and scouted as a pitcher
-13th round pick
-6th round pick, acquired via trade

Did this just fly over his head or he has no response?

So the 3 players he cites as "models" for the blues to alter their path and go find are:

Musial - signed as a pitcher took 3 years to make it to majors.

AP - a 13th round draft choice. Hockey has no such lowly position.

Hull - 177th pick by Calgary who traded him.

hahahaha....such fine examples for tanking to get talent and championships.

I'm not taking a side in your dispute with the OP but the three players you mentioned are examples of extreme good fortune for St. Louis. They are the epitome of the adage that an elite player can be found or acquired by any means. It's like the argument that if a team gets to the playoffs they can win the Cup regardless of how good they really are. These are a extreme exceptions to the rule and in no way should be used as a strategy for building a sports team. I suppose it's true even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Look around the NHL. The superstars were selected TOP 5 because they were exceptional since childhood.

Here in St Louis, we worry and fret about "losing Kyrou". He is both our superstar and our excuse magnet. He just went 0 for 48 in the playoffs, and the fans are anxiously awaiting Army's next great find in the later portion of the draft.

We entered the playoffs to supposedly battle that losing culture, and what did we accomplish? We hung a big fat albatross loss around our neck that fans will still be talking about 10 years from now, and Kyrou REMOVED ALL DOUBT that he is soft. Good luck trading Kyrou now. Teams want players that step up in the playoffs, not vanish.

I guess Winnipeg should have tanked. Any team that loses in the first round should tank.
They don't have any superstars.
Dallas doesn't have any superstars, they should tank too.
Lucky for Chicago they tanked for Bedard....I hope they enjoy this years long playoff run after nearly a decade of being (bleep).
Same with Buffalo and San Jose.

You have no clue what you are talking about. You have become the lying punchline on this forum.
Your words carry little weight with me or anyone else on here.

Btw, what is 0 for 48??

[Bubble4427]

What is the value of Stan Musial, Albert Pujols, and Brett Hull to St Louis? Are you comfortable with NEVER AGAIN having an exceptional NHL player representing St Louis? I want one for St Louis, and I want to increase my odds of getting one. I care about that MORE than I care about getting to the playoffs and losing in Round 1.

-Initially signed and scouted as a pitcher
-13th round pick
-6th round pick, acquired via trade

Did this just fly over his head or he has no response?

So the 3 players he cites as "models" for the blues to alter their path and go find are:

Musial - signed as a pitcher took 3 years to make it to majors.

AP - a 13th round draft choice. Hockey has no such lowly position.

Hull - 177th pick by Calgary who traded him.

hahahaha....such fine examples for tanking to get talent and championships.

I'm not taking a side in your dispute with the OP but the three players you mentioned are examples of extreme good fortune for St. Louis. They are the epitome of the adage that an elite player can be found or acquired by any means. It's like the argument that if a team gets to the playoffs they can win the Cup regardless of how good they really are. These are a extreme exceptions to the rule and in no way should be used as a strategy for building a sports team. I suppose it's true even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

For every star that was at the top of the draft, there are many more that were taken later.
And many taken at the top of the draft have been less than stellar or outright busts.
Tanking guarantees nothing except encouraging a losing culture that is hard to reverse.

Look around the NHL. The superstars were selected TOP 5 because they were exceptional since childhood.

Here in St Louis, we worry and fret about "losing Kyrou". He is both our superstar and our excuse magnet. He just went 0 for 48 in the playoffs, and the fans are anxiously awaiting Army's next great find in the later portion of the draft.

We entered the playoffs to supposedly battle that losing culture, and what did we accomplish? We hung a big fat albatross loss around our neck that fans will still be talking about 10 years from now, and Kyrou REMOVED ALL DOUBT that he is soft. Good luck trading Kyrou now. Teams want players that step up in the playoffs, not vanish.

I guess Winnipeg should have tanked. Any team that loses in the first round should tank.
They don't have any superstars.
Dallas doesn't have any superstars, they should tank too.
Lucky for Chicago they tanked for Bedard....I hope they enjoy this years long playoff run after nearly a decade of being (bleep).
Same with Buffalo and San Jose.

You have no clue what you are talking about. You have become the lying punchline on this forum.
Your words carry little weight with me or anyone else on here.

Btw, what is 0 for 48??

No one could pay me enough money to crawl inside that dope’s head and try to understand what he means with anything….
He’s just a clueless troll….

[skilles]

How about a deal around Kyrou and Larkin?

There is some speculation he may be available.

[Blue Sabbath]

How about a deal around Kyrou and Larkin?

There is some speculation he may be available.

Do you think Larkin fits the bill for a 200' scorer that Army wants or is he a Kyrou that plays center? Their point averages are about the same. Larkin is two full years older and has played a lot of games. I'd want Detroit to make a significant add. They can afford it at least if they want Kyrou.

[skilles]

How about a deal around Kyrou and Larkin?

There is some speculation he may be available.

Do you think Larkin fits the bill for a 200' scorer that Army wants or is he a Kyrou that plays center? Their point averages are about the same. Larkin is two full years older and has played a lot of games. I'd want Detroit to make a significant add. They can afford it at least if they want Kyrou.

Well I don't think that is going to happen, A "Kyrou that plays center" is a pretty valuable player

Still wouldn't be my choice but interesting.

[Blue Sabbath]

How about a deal around Kyrou and Larkin?

There is some speculation he may be available.

Do you think Larkin fits the bill for a 200' scorer that Army wants or is he a Kyrou that plays center? Their point averages are about the same. Larkin is two full years older and has played a lot of games. I'd want Detroit to make a significant add. They can afford it at least if they want Kyrou.

Well I don't think that is going to happen, A "Kyrou that plays center" is a pretty valuable player

Still wouldn't be my choice but interesting.

No doubt Larkin is pretty valuable but just wondering if he's what Army wants to invest 5 more years and 45 mil on. A one for one trade maybe doesn't make us better which negates the point of such a trade hence I'd want Detroit to add.

I personally think this is a year we should use the "do no harm approach". I think we get better by the growth of younger players like Neighbors, Broberg, Bolduc, Snuggeruud etc.

If we don't get hit hard with injuries we probably make the playoffs comfortably. We can make a deadline move to ensure a better result. Then in the off-season make some major moves. Just my perspective.

[Cahokanut]

It would only make sense to trade a 27yo 35+ goal, on a cheap long term contract if we were doing a rebuild and he isn't the vet leader wanted for the next window.

I'd trade a second line, Buch and a scoring third liner Neighbours before I'd trade top line Kyrou and potential 50 goal sniper Bolduc.

[Blue Sabbath]

It would only make sense to trade a 27yo 35+ goal, on a cheap long term contract if we were doing a rebuild and he isn't the vet leader wanted for the next window.

I'd trade a second line, Buch and a scoring third liner Neighbours before I'd trade top line Kyrou and potential 50 goal sniper Bolduc.

I've been thinking the same thing. I think we have to wait on Butch to bounce back and have a good year though.Then the counter argument will be why trade him since he's playing good?

If some other organization wants Jake Neighbors and whichever
prospect is available pick at number #19 enough we might be able to get one really good player in return. If we have to add a prospect outside our top 5 in addition,c I'd do it for the right player

[bud white]

The issue with trade conjecture on this board is simply this:

Winning a Cup and / or building a competitive NHL team does not happen by pouring over hockey-refernce.com or by creating a team through EA Sports. It is won on the ice. You need a balance of skill and battle. Skill can be measured by stats, but battle simply cannot.

Battle is the finished check. The little stick nudge on the back of the leg. The incessant yipping that gets the opposition out of their comfort zone, draws them away from the task at hand, and ends up in a stupid penalty taken at a critical juncture of the game. Battle is going to the front of the net knowing you'll get whacked, hacked and abused for two plus months.

Battle is the guy you hate on the other team ... but would love to have on your team.

That's where guy like Schenn, Neighbors, Bolduc, Suter and Tucker live. This is where they thrive. And man "battle" guys learned the ropes in the Western Junior League. Kids are driving hours to a game or practice...and hours back the other way. They give an honest effort.

Stanley Cups come through the Western Juniors (frankly, that's a core issue of the Maple Leafs).

The Winnipeg fan base absolutely hated Neighbors, Schenn and Bolduc (who played more like a western kid than a kid from the Q). And while many point to their lack of production, this series doesn't go to 7 games without them.

So let's pump the brakes on Neighbors and Bolduc. They aren't JAGs. They are young and they are tough. And they are exactly who is needed as you build a winning culture.