so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade

[Baseball Savant]

Liberatore has a ways to go to catch up to Arozarena production over past 5 years.

But he has taken a big step forward, attacking hitters with 3 above average pitches.

If he ever learns to incorporate a changeup or splitter, he could become elite.,

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Herrera has 21 abs this season, wtf. SSS much? Walker is awful at the plate.

Like I said, in a vacuum I guess you could make an argument for taking RA over those two, but Herrera is a 24 year old stud prospect who hit at every level (and is also tied with RA in fWAR right now, despite the SSS) and Walker, as bad as he has been, is still a 22 year old with loads of potential.

Yes, I like Randy Arozarena, but he's 30, terrible defensively, and we've seen his peak. I'd rather have the other two.

Hey you are entitled your opinion, as we all are. I just think Randy who is 30 (which is peaking/peaked) but not old and has a ton of PA's which for some reason this forum doesn't give much weight. The guy is available every night, he has ~2500 PA's and he adjust his game with the league (He could end up with ~3000 PA's after this season). He isn't just a flash in the pan, he has made several adjustments throughout his career. Now he seems to be focusing more OBP, getting on base and being selective on the bags. His IoT metrics are still strong in some areas, including his average exit velo, which is the highest it's been in his career ~92 mph's.

I'm a Cardinals fan and hope Libby wins 15 and gets Cy Young considerations, if that happens the scales are most certainly moving in the right direction. But I am also a MLB fan and like to give players an honest eval and not just making claims based on small samples.

[RunSup]

This thread is about sunk cost.

Does it matter how RA is doing compared to Libby? Maybe only if you want to assess whether Mo made a good trade or was fleeced. Ok, but will want a beer, chips and bar stool for the "Mo is (or isn't) an idiot" conversation.

I'm just happy that Libby is doing well, providing real value and looking more and more like a front of the rotation starter. And still have hopes for Tink Hence.

Congratulations to Arozarena and his entire family if he is doing well. But his performance doesn't really matter to the Cardinals going forward.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Hey you are entitled your opinion, as we all are. I just think Randy who is 30 (which is peaking/peaked) but not old and has a ton of PA's which for some reason this forum doesn't give much weight. The guy is available every night, he has ~2500 PA's and he adjust his game with the league (He could end up with ~3000 PA's after this season). He isn't just a flash in the pan, he has made several adjustments throughout his career. Now he seems to be focusing more OBP, getting on base and being selective on the bags. His IoT metrics are still strong in some areas, including his average exit velo, which is the highest it's been in his career ~92 mph's.

I'm a Cardinals fan and hope Libby wins 15 and gets Cy Young considerations, if that happens the scales are most certainly moving in the right direction. But I am also a MLB fan and like to give players an honest eval and not just making claims based on small samples.

Sure, I agree with all of that first paragraph. I really like him too. Very good player. One I would have loved to have had on the team the past few years. But this this year, with the lineup we have, I see two spots for him. And with the players we have in those two spots, not just this year, but for the possible future, I wouldn't replace them for him.

And I'm not ready yet either to declare that trade a win. Let's get a full season out of Liberatore first, then hope he can stay healthy. But the future definitely is starting to look brighter.

[Quincy Varnish]

Herrera has 21 abs this season, wtf. SSS much? Walker is awful at the plate.

Like I said, in a vacuum I guess you could make an argument for taking RA over those two, but Herrera is a 24 year old stud prospect who hit at every level (and is also tied with RA in fWAR right now, despite the SSS) and Walker, as bad as he has been, is still a 22 year old with loads of potential.

Yes, I like Randy Arozarena, but he's 30, terrible defensively, and we've seen his peak. I'd rather have the other two.

Hey you are entitled your opinion, as we all are. I just think Randy who is 30 (which is peaking/peaked) but not old and has a ton of PA's which for some reason this forum doesn't give much weight. The guy is available every night, he has ~2500 PA's and he adjust his game with the league (He could end up with ~3000 PA's after this season). He isn't just a flash in the pan, he has made several adjustments throughout his career. Now he seems to be focusing more OBP, getting on base and being selective on the bags. His IoT metrics are still strong in some areas, including his average exit velo, which is the highest it's been in his career ~92 mph's.

I'm a Cardinals fan and hope Libby wins 15 and gets Cy Young considerations, if that happens the scales are most certainly moving in the right direction. But I am also a MLB fan and like to give players an honest eval and not just making claims based on small samples.

Why would anyone put much weight on accumulated PA? He shows up, and typically bats high in the order. That’s just a thing that happens.

You do have a point that appears to have made some adjustments, at least with his plate discipline. Selective on the bases… maybe. Historically he was one of the worst baserunners in the game, and mediocre at best defensively.

Arozarena is kind of an overrated player. particularly amongst Cardinals fans… if this place is any indication. 2-3 WAR outfielder isn’t anything special, but I’ll agree he’s fun to watch if you like chest thumping.

[jw0595]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

[Charlie Smoke]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

[ecleme22]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

My post from page one:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

[An Old Friend]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

My post from page one:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Why are you so obsessed with getting people’s opinions on a fake trade that didn’t happen a decade ago? The Cubs did win the World Series. What’s the point of making an argument based on them NOT winning it as a basis to supporting or not supporting a trade that didn’t occur?

[thetank2]

Your assessment going to have any impact?

[ecleme22]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

My post from page one:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Why are you so obsessed with getting people’s opinions on a fake trade that didn’t happen a decade ago? The Cubs did win the World Series. What’s the point of making an argument based on them NOT winning it as a basis to supporting or not supporting a trade that didn’t occur?

Seems like you're a little obsessed with me. LOL.

It's not a 'fake' trade, but rather a hypothetical trade to make a point. And it's a pretty straight forward hypothetical that touches on the concept of a 'playoff window.'

If a CTer says "I would rather have Libby RIGHT NOW over Randy, which means the Cards won the trade!" I'm allowed to refute that.

Would you like to debate this? I'm guessing not...

[An Old Friend]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

My post from page one:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Why are you so obsessed with getting people’s opinions on a fake trade that didn’t happen a decade ago? The Cubs did win the World Series. What’s the point of making an argument based on them NOT winning it as a basis to supporting or not supporting a trade that didn’t occur?

Seems like you're a little obsessed with me. LOL.

It's not a 'fake' trade, but rather a hypothetical trade to make a point. And it's a pretty straight forward hypothetical that touches on the concept of a 'playoff window.'

You made up a trade... call it hypothetical, fake, whatever... a trade that didn't occur (i.e. not genuine) to support an alternative outcome... a fake outcome, if you will, as it didn't happen... to support your point or concept.

When you have to stretch that hard to support your point, maybe reconsider your point.

If a CTer says "I would rather have Libby RIGHT NOW over Randy, which means the Cards won the trade!" I'm allowed to refute that.

Would you like to debate this? I'm guessing not...

I mean, how is that any different than you declaring the trade definitively lost in year 1? Surely you recall blasting people that suggested to you that it would take some time to play out to see what becomes of Liberatore.

Can you quote specifically who you are referencing that said the Cardinals won the trade? I haven't seen anyone say that outright... so now you're headed down your typical strawman path, as well.

You get what you give.

[ecleme22]

There's no point in reassessing the trade because any credit or fallout from the trade is now moot as the principals are moving on. We have a LH SP who is looking like he may be something special & probably has many years in front of him, Arozarena is approaching the twilight of his career. Who would you rather have today?

There it is...

My post from page one:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Why are you so obsessed with getting people’s opinions on a fake trade that didn’t happen a decade ago? The Cubs did win the World Series. What’s the point of making an argument based on them NOT winning it as a basis to supporting or not supporting a trade that didn’t occur?

Seems like you're a little obsessed with me. LOL.

It's not a 'fake' trade, but rather a hypothetical trade to make a point. And it's a pretty straight forward hypothetical that touches on the concept of a 'playoff window.'

You made up a trade... call it hypothetical, fake, whatever... a trade that didn't occur (i.e. not genuine) to support an alternative outcome... a fake outcome, if you will, as it didn't happen... to support your point or concept.

When you have to stretch that hard to support your point, maybe reconsider your point.

If a CTer says "I would rather have Libby RIGHT NOW over Randy, which means the Cards won the trade!" I'm allowed to refute that.

Would you like to debate this? I'm guessing not...

I mean, how is that any different than you declaring the trade definitively lost in year 1? Surely you recall blasting people that suggested to you that it would take some time to play out to see what becomes of Liberatore.

Can you quote specifically who you are referencing that said the Cardinals won the trade? I haven't seen anyone say that outright... so now you're headed down your typical strawman path, as well.

You get what you give.

No, it's a very straightforward hypothetical. Would you like to discuss it how it relates to the Libby trade? Guessing not.

I look forward to your reply and breaking up the three sentences above into three separate quotes. LOL

[An Old Friend]

No, it's a very straightforward hypothetical. Would you like to discuss it how it relates to the Libby trade? Guessing not.

I look forward to your reply and breaking up the three sentences above into three separate quotes. LOL

You made up a trade to support your point.
You made up an alternative outcome after the trade you made up.
You made up an argument that no one has made and have chosen to try to refute it.

At some point, it'd be nice if you were just straight up instead of hiding behind a bunch of made up... errrr... "hypothetical"... stuff. Ya know? Like, discuss facts instead of the fictitious scenarios you create to try to support your positions.

And no, I've been very clear for years on Liberatore and the trade. There isn't really anything for you and I to discuss... and surely not your reference to things that did not occur as a basis for your argument.

[ecleme22]

No, it's a very straightforward hypothetical. Would you like to discuss it how it relates to the Libby trade? Guessing not.

I look forward to your reply and breaking up the three sentences above into three separate quotes. LOL

You made up a trade to support your point.
You made up an alternative outcome after the trade you made up.
You made up an argument that no one has made and have chosen to try to refute it.

At some point, it'd be nice if you were just straight up instead of hiding behind a bunch of made up... errrr... "hypothetical"... stuff. Ya know? Like, discuss facts instead of the fictitious scenarios you create to try to support your positions.

And no, I've been very clear for years on Liberatore and the trade. There isn't really anything for you and I to discuss... and surely not your reference to things that did not occur as a basis for your argument.

No buddy, it's called a hypothetical.

I know you get upset about hypotheticals. I remember the days of O'Neill. LOL.

My hypothetical touches on the importance of a playoff window. Trades are more than waiting until the traded players retire, then counting up their respective career WARs. Trades are also about the state of the team at the time.

And just because we like the fact that Libby and his controlled years are on the team in 2025 over the soon-to-be FA Randy doesn't mean the Cards won the trade.

Go ahead, refute this.

Few weeks ago, you were quick to mention me regarding this: Well ecleme declared the trade lost 3 years ago so that can’t be!

I'm in your head, (buzz).

[An Old Friend]

Few weeks ago, you were quick to mention me regarding this: Well ecleme declared the trade lost 3 years ago so that can’t be!

And THAT is not a hypothetical. You actually did that.

Good luck with your busy schedule today.