so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade

[RichieRichSTL]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

Exactly. Ask us by the end of 2027. He looks good, but this is the best stretch of his career IMHO.

[ecleme22]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

Exactly. Ask us by the end of 2027. He looks good, but this is the best stretch of his career IMHO.

See my post on the previous page.

[Jatalk]

I admit I bashed Libby mainly because the hype was so big in the trade. Hopefully he continues to prove me stupid.

[hugeCardfan]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

This isn't going to wind up a WAR match to measure the success of the trade. We were desperate for pitching and we needed Liberatore. He hasn't developed as quickly as Arozarena but he wasn't as old either. Now Randy is in his 5th year of control and next year he plays out his FA year. Libby is in his 2d year of control and is a Cardinal for 4 more years and I won't be surprised if we extend him. The trade circumstance is becoming overwhelmingly in favor of Libby.

Sure, RA had a great postseason. He looked like he was going to become a run away star. He just hasn't. After a 4 WAR he's only had one above 2... I doubt he will be extended by his current team. In the mean time, if we proffered Libby up RIGHT NOW, teams would be lining up. Of course, we don't know for a fact if he's become a premier pitcher....but, we can sure feel good about his prospects. Let's see, a lefty starter with a 97 mph fastball, and 4 solid pitches all of which he commands extremely well.

No one should want to reconsider that trade at this point.

The Cards didn't need to think about pitching for 2025 in 2019.

Make no mistake, a big part of this trade was Mo's perceived traffic jam in the OF.

So what? It took Libby longer than I'm sure the Cards had hoped. Still he was useful in their pen last year and now he's developing into a full fledged pitcher with star potential....like they'd always hoped. Make no mistake, I'm not defending Mo's trade of Arozarena. I was very high on him when he first came up to St Louis after a great year in the minors. Turns out, Arozarena wasn't a sustainable star. He's another outfielder who's enjoyed moments of brilliance, while enduring periods of mediocrity. Years later, we finally have a pitcher with star potential and years to enjoy him.

Yeah, we screwed the pooch for a few years with outfielders while outfitting some of our competitors. No superstars left to carve out careers elsewhere; just some solid ballplayers. Bash Mo on your own time; I don't have the patience or inclination for that.

[ecleme22]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

This isn't going to wind up a WAR match to measure the success of the trade. We were desperate for pitching and we needed Liberatore. He hasn't developed as quickly as Arozarena but he wasn't as old either. Now Randy is in his 5th year of control and next year he plays out his FA year. Libby is in his 2d year of control and is a Cardinal for 4 more years and I won't be surprised if we extend him. The trade circumstance is becoming overwhelmingly in favor of Libby.

Sure, RA had a great postseason. He looked like he was going to become a run away star. He just hasn't. After a 4 WAR he's only had one above 2... I doubt he will be extended by his current team. In the mean time, if we proffered Libby up RIGHT NOW, teams would be lining up. Of course, we don't know for a fact if he's become a premier pitcher....but, we can sure feel good about his prospects. Let's see, a lefty starter with a 97 mph fastball, and 4 solid pitches all of which he commands extremely well.

No one should want to reconsider that trade at this point.

The Cards didn't need to think about pitching for 2025 in 2019.

Make no mistake, a big part of this trade was Mo's perceived traffic jam in the OF.

So what? It took Libby longer than I'm sure the Cards had hoped. Still he was useful in their pen last year and now he's developing into a full fledged pitcher with star potential....like they'd always hoped. Make no mistake, I'm not defending Mo's trade of Arozarena. I was very high on him when he first came up to St Louis after a great year in the minors. Turns out, Arozarena wasn't a sustainable star. He's another outfielder who's enjoyed moments of brilliance, while enduring periods of mediocrity. Years later, we finally have a pitcher with star potential and years to enjoy him.

Yeah, we screwed the pooch for a few years with outfielders while outfitting some of our competitors. No superstars left to carve out careers elsewhere. Just some solid ballplayers. Bash Mo on your own time; I don't have the patience for that.

My post on Page 1 in response to jbrach's OP:
Question:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

If Libby has found himself in 2025 and proves to be a good starter, then GREAT. Amazing. But make no mistake, that trade removed from the team in desperate need of an OF bat for most, if not all, of the Goldy/Arenado window.

[ClassicO]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

[ecleme22]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

(applause)

Thank you.

You're acknowledging the window that the team had that has since closed.

[RichieRichSTL]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

That's always been the problem. Mo, when he solid team, has never been willing to step up and get the teams what it needs to put it over the top. Unfortunately, the team doesn't have a Manager with the gravitas and track record to be able to press MO. Mike Shildt tried and we see what happens. TLR had more fan support, more league support and the team responded to him. No matter how much, Mo didn't like it, he wasn't in a position to ignore TLR's asks or get rid of him for a manager that was happy enough to have the job not to rock the boat.

[RichieRichSTL]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

(applause)

Thank you.

You're acknowledging the window that the team had that has since closed.

Mo would rather have mostly edge of the playoffs, .500+ record years than peaks and valleys where you ride it to the WS. He didn't fortify the 2015 team, he didn't do much to give a solid 2019 a shot of getting past the really good teams and he didn't do much to help the 2022 team get past the first round. Mo's problem is that he is willing to pay $$ for admission to the Six Flags, but he stays at the kid-friendly rides. Which make you wonder, why not just go to a local carnival and not have to pay a pricey tickets/parking/food if you can just go to the Carnival for a few hours, with free parking and can get cheap food on the way home and come out with more money left?

[ecleme22]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

(applause)

Thank you.

You're acknowledging the window that the team had that has since closed.

Mo would rather have mostly edge of the playoffs, .500+ record years than peaks and valleys where you ride it to the WS. He didn't fortify the 2015 team, he didn't do much to give a solid 2019 a shot of getting past the really good teams and he didn't do much to help the 2022 team get past the first round. Mo's problem is that he is willing to pay $$ for admission to the Six Flags, but he stays at the kid-friendly rides. Which make you wonder, why not just go to a local carnival and not have to pay a pricey tickets/parking/food if you can just go to the Carnival for a few hours, with free parking and can get cheap food on the way home and come out with more money left?

2019: O'Neill struggled. Bader struggled.
After 2019: Didn't resign Ozuna.

Mo doubled down on Oneill and Bader. Also, he fell in love with Edman who had no place on the team as a middle infielder (DeJong contract and Wong).

You have to realize the Lib trade was to free Mo from the modest JMart contract, as well as part with Randy who he thought there was no room for.

[An Old Friend]

Been preaching for years that Libby had this type of talent and that they needed to give him the consistency that a starter needs to unlock it.

Loving that he's showing out this year... one of the bright spots.

And to whomever said it... yeah, I think Bloom was the catalyst, likely told Mozo to stop being a bozo and put him in the rotation.

[ecleme22]

Been preaching for years that Libby had this type of talent and that they needed to give him the consistency that a starter needs to unlock it.

Loving that he's showing out this year... one of the bright spots.

And to whomever said it... yeah, I think Bloom was the catalyst, likely told Mozo to stop being a bozo and put him in the rotation.

And yet, cards signed 3 starters last year and not a word from you that Libby was blocked….

[An Old Friend]

Been preaching for years that Libby had this type of talent and that they needed to give him the consistency that a starter needs to unlock it.

Loving that he's showing out this year... one of the bright spots.

And to whomever said it... yeah, I think Bloom was the catalyst, likely told Mozo to stop being a bozo and put him in the rotation.

And yet, cards signed 3 starters last year and not a word from you that Libby was blocked….

It’s weird the things you forget.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

Agreed. I can’t believe we are actually discussing this lol.

[thetank2]

Libby could outperform Roz but he’s still far from a sure thing. And Roz is still only 30.
The key to me is that - if Arozarena had been on the Cards from 2020 to 2022 when the Cardinals lost the NLCS, and then three straight years in the wildcard, he could’ve made a difference, especially since that was when had Goldy and NA were still very good.

Agreed. I can’t believe we are actually discussing this lol.

Lol. 1000s of influential posters discussing this.

[AnExParrot]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

Actually, this is one I don't think you can blame the brass. He had plenty of chances to start. He was not good. He even admitted to overthinking before starts.

I attribute this success more to maturity. He's still only 25.

I will first off admit this to be pure speculation and not state it like it’s a full blown fact. But perhaps the overthinking came from “if I don’t do good this start they will put me back in the pen or back down to AAA.” And not “even if I pitch bad today I’ll be back out on the mound in 5 days”

How many consecutive starts did he have before this season?(honest question). I just don’t see it as a coincidence that he begins the season in the rotation and has stayed there regardless of how each start went. And now we are seeing a guy with legitimate top of the rotation potential every 5th day.

He seems to be responding much better to comfort and stability rather than “punishment”

It's funny, I was going to respond to his post, too, and with the answer to the question you asked. 10 consecutive starts in 2023 is his longest stretch of starts. But even that season, he came up and got a start and was in the bullpen in his next appearance, then had 10 straight starts.