so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade

[Banner29]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

[blackinkbiz]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

Actually, this is one I don't think you can blame the brass. He had plenty of chances to start. He was not good. He even admitted to overthinking before starts.

I attribute this success more to maturity. He's still only 25.

[Strummer Jones]

Yes. I don't know how you couldn't. Lib has been our stopper this year, seems like. He's keeping guys off the bases and keeping the walks to a minimum.

Back of the baseball card stats are good. Mid-3's ERA, about 8k/9ip, keeps the ball in the yard. His FIP is outstanding. His WHIP is outstanding. And as a credit for him, he walked 3 guys...which doubled his season total to date. WHAT A BUM.

Kidding, of course. I've said it all season long. Liberatore made me look like a right fool. He's got the stuff to be a guy that can stabilize a rotation. I don't think he's an ace-ace, but he's got the markings of a guy who'll slot in at #3. A guy you don't really need to think about.

I expect he'll wear down as the year goes on, which isn't uncommon for young guys getting their first shot in the rotation. But he's doing EXACTLY what he needs to be doing. I'm happy for him and for the team.

[Banner29]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

Actually, this is one I don't think you can blame the brass. He had plenty of chances to start. He was not good. He even admitted to overthinking before starts.

I attribute this success more to maturity. He's still only 25.

I will first off admit this to be pure speculation and not state it like it’s a full blown fact. But perhaps the overthinking came from “if I don’t do good this start they will put me back in the pen or back down to AAA.” And not “even if I pitch bad today I’ll be back out on the mound in 5 days”

How many consecutive starts did he have before this season?(honest question). I just don’t see it as a coincidence that he begins the season in the rotation and has stayed there regardless of how each start went. And now we are seeing a guy with legitimate top of the rotation potential every 5th day.

He seems to be responding much better to comfort and stability rather than “punishment”

[ecleme22]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

Actually, this is one I don't think you can blame the brass. He had plenty of chances to start. He was not good. He even admitted to overthinking before starts.

I attribute this success more to maturity. He's still only 25.

I will first off admit this to be pure speculation and not state it like it’s a full blown fact. But perhaps the overthinking came from “if I don’t do good this start they will put me back in the pen or back down to AAA.” And not “even if I pitch bad today I’ll be back out on the mound in 5 days”

How many consecutive starts did he have before this season?(honest question). I just don’t see it as a coincidence that he begins the season in the rotation and has stayed there regardless of how each start went. And now we are seeing a guy with legitimate top of the rotation potential every 5th day.

He seems to be responding much better to comfort and stability rather than “punishment”

Certain CTers (not you) look at ML's success so far in 2025 and equate it to 'not misusing' him or whatever.

Maybe we chalk it up to maturity and age.

Was Pallante given a long runway of promised starts in 2024? No. He was given the opportunity and succeeded.

Those same CTers have brought up Randy Johnson and how he struggled early on. He got locked in at age 26. Were the Expos 'jerking him around!'? Nope.

[jbrach]

I agree, lefties tend to mature later and it just may be that he harnessed his control since he always had the stuff

[Banner29]

I suppose. It’s only a shame that they didn’t allow this success sooner. Putting him from the bullpen to a spot start to the minors back up for the bullpen then a spot start then back to the minors.

But misuse of talented prospects didn’t start or end with Libs……

Actually, this is one I don't think you can blame the brass. He had plenty of chances to start. He was not good. He even admitted to overthinking before starts.

I attribute this success more to maturity. He's still only 25.

I will first off admit this to be pure speculation and not state it like it’s a full blown fact. But perhaps the overthinking came from “if I don’t do good this start they will put me back in the pen or back down to AAA.” And not “even if I pitch bad today I’ll be back out on the mound in 5 days”

How many consecutive starts did he have before this season?(honest question). I just don’t see it as a coincidence that he begins the season in the rotation and has stayed there regardless of how each start went. And now we are seeing a guy with legitimate top of the rotation potential every 5th day.

He seems to be responding much better to comfort and stability rather than “punishment”

Certain CTers (not you) look at ML's success so far in 2025 and equate it to 'not misusing' him or whatever.

Maybe we chalk it up to maturity and age.

Was Pallante given a long runway of promised starts in 2024? No. He was given the opportunity and succeeded.

Those same CTers have brought up Randy Johnson and how he struggled early on. He got locked in at age 26. Were the Expos 'jerking him around!'? Nope.

We can absolutely chalk it up one way or another. I won’t say I’m right or wrong in the matter. My only thing is the Cardinals habitual misuse/poor evaluation of prospects and the fact that Bloom, who has strong familiarity with Libs, suddenly steps in and now he looks like a guy we will be able to count on long term. Either way I’m enjoying and am very excited for his success now. And regardless of why it never happened sooner is now irrelevant. Either it’s he finally reached his “age” or the primary problem will be gone in a few months

[Bushiro]

Never would have been necessary if they kept him in the pen. He has immense value as a top starter, and that sure looks more and more what he is developing into.

Yep it's definitely coming together for him...and he's getting more and more confident in his stuff...

[MIDMOBIRDTWO]

Never would have been necessary if they kept him in the pen. He has immense value as a top starter, and that sure looks more and more what he is developing into.

Yep it's definitely coming together for him...and he's getting more and more confident in his stuff...

I hate labeling guys, but I go back to Steve Carlton days. Saw him throw a complete game one hitter against the Cubs in 1967. Liberatore may be the best left handed pitcher the Cards have developed since Steve if he stays on this track.

[Absolut]

Never would have been necessary if they kept him in the pen. He has immense value as a top starter, and that sure looks more and more what he is developing into.

Yep it's definitely coming together for him...and he's getting more and more confident in his stuff...

I hate labeling guys, but I go back to Steve Carlton days. Saw him throw a complete game one hitter against the Cubs in 1967. Liberatore may be the best left handed pitcher the Cards have developed since Steve if he stays on this track.

Dunno about that. But I’ve seen him pitch live about ten times over the year live, tonight he had a different air about him.

[peterman'srealitytour]

I believe both Liberatore and Pallante benefited a great deal from the presence of Gray, Gibson and Lynn last year.

I recall Liberatore had a very strong relief outing against Pittsburgh in 2nd half of 2024. When interviewed after that game, Liberatore said Lynn helped him with “pitch sequencing.”

Pallante said Gibson would observe all of his bullpens and offer advice.

It’s also pretty well documented that Gray was the sweeper guru for the whole staff.

[ramfandan]

Believe i heard him say after the game that developing the 'cutter' pitch to be effective was key to his improved performance.
He can use that pitch in his mix now.

[hugeCardfan]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

This isn't going to wind up a WAR match to measure the success of the trade. We were desperate for pitching and we needed Liberatore. He hasn't developed as quickly as Arozarena but he wasn't as old either. Now Randy is in his 5th year of control and next year he plays out his FA year. Libby is in his 2d year of control and is a Cardinal for 4 more years and I won't be surprised if we extend him. The trade circumstance is becoming overwhelmingly in favor of Libby.

Sure, RA had a great postseason. He looked like he was going to become a run away star. He just hasn't. After a 4 WAR he's only had one above 2... I doubt he will be extended by his current team. In the mean time, if we proffered Libby up RIGHT NOW, teams would be lining up. Of course, we don't know for a fact if he's become a premier pitcher....but, we can sure feel good about his prospects. Let's see, a lefty starter with a 97 mph fastball, and 4 solid pitches all of which he commands extremely well.

No one should want to reconsider that trade at this point.

[ramfandan]

What’s Randy doing this year?

Randy who ?

[ecleme22]

Arozarena had produced 13.6 War while Matthew 2.3. As of at this point in this season he is however out performing Randy. Still has a ways to go though to call the trade even. Hopefully he performs this way for a few more years for the Cards.

This isn't going to wind up a WAR match to measure the success of the trade. We were desperate for pitching and we needed Liberatore. He hasn't developed as quickly as Arozarena but he wasn't as old either. Now Randy is in his 5th year of control and next year he plays out his FA year. Libby is in his 2d year of control and is a Cardinal for 4 more years and I won't be surprised if we extend him. The trade circumstance is becoming overwhelmingly in favor of Libby.

Sure, RA had a great postseason. He looked like he was going to become a run away star. He just hasn't. After a 4 WAR he's only had one above 2... I doubt he will be extended by his current team. In the mean time, if we proffered Libby up RIGHT NOW, teams would be lining up. Of course, we don't know for a fact if he's become a premier pitcher....but, we can sure feel good about his prospects. Let's see, a lefty starter with a 97 mph fastball, and 4 solid pitches all of which he commands extremely well.

No one should want to reconsider that trade at this point.

The Cards didn't need to think about pitching for 2025 in 2019.

Make no mistake, a big part of this trade was Mo's perceived traffic jam in the OF.

[Strummer Jones]

Never would have been necessary if they kept him in the pen. He has immense value as a top starter, and that sure looks more and more what he is developing into.

Yep it's definitely coming together for him...and he's getting more and more confident in his stuff...

I hate labeling guys, but I go back to Steve Carlton days. Saw him throw a complete game one hitter against the Cubs in 1967. Liberatore may be the best left handed pitcher the Cards have developed since Steve if he stays on this track.

No disrespect to either Lefty or Libby, but I still maintain that Rick Ankiel pre-yips was the best Cardinal SP I've ever seen. Granted, Carlton was retired by the time I was born.