What is happening with Jordan Walker?

[Cranny]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

[3dender]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rookie year he was passable... 13% better than league average with the bat. How many other young guys come up and have above average rookie years only to be not good major leaguers? Can name a few on the Cards right off the top of my head: DeJong, Carlson, Pham, Adams, Jose Martinez, etc...

Even if you want to point to the age being a difference, Dylan Carlson is a pretty perfect example of what can happen when a young guy gets overhyped by the Cards org. Good pedigree, good build, good person, smart... but a weirdly ineffectual swing and maybe missing that extra layer of talent that you need to reach stardom.

[Futuregm2]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rookie year he was passable... 13% better than league average with the bat. How many other young guys come up and have above average rookie years only to be not good major leaguers? Can name a few on the Cards right off the top of my head: DeJong, Carlson, Pham, Adams, Jose Martinez, etc...

Even if you want to point to the age being a difference, Dylan Carlson is a pretty perfect example of what can happen when a young guy gets overhyped by the Cards org. Good pedigree, good build, good person, smart... but a weirdly ineffectual swing and maybe missing that extra layer of talent that you need to reach stardom.

I love when people say the “organization overhyped them” when they were top 10 prospects by every third party organization out there in Walker’s case and at least by Baseball America in Carlson’s case and top 15 by MLB/16th by Baseball Prospectus. It wasn’t just the Cardinals. But the sport is hard and there are players who don’t live up to their expectations. For the Cardinals it has happened far too much on what should be elite talent, so they need to figure out why that is happening so much.

[Cranny]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rookie year he was passable... 13% better than league average with the bat. How many other young guys come up and have above average rookie years only to be not good major leaguers? Can name a few on the Cards right off the top of my head: DeJong, Carlson, Pham, Adams, Jose Martinez, etc...

Even if you want to point to the age being a difference, Dylan Carlson is a pretty perfect example of what can happen when a young guy gets overhyped by the Cards org. Good pedigree, good build, good person, smart... but a weirdly ineffectual swing and maybe missing that extra layer of talent that you need to reach stardom.

I love when people say the “organization overhyped them” when they were top 10 prospects by every third party organization out there in Walker’s case and at least by Baseball America in Carlson’s case and top 15 by MLB/16th by Baseball Prospectus. It wasn’t just the Cardinals. But the sport is hard and there are players who don’t live up to their expectations. For the Cardinals it has happened far too much on what should be elite talent, so they need to figure out why that is happening so much.

It's interesting to look at the Cardinals top 3 rounds draftees over the past 10 years to see how many have worked out.

2015 -

1st - Jake Plummer (ouch)
CP - Jake Woodford (ouch)
2nd - Bruce Denton (ouch)
3rd - Harrison Bader
3rd supp - Jordan Hicks

They did pick up Dejong in the 4th round and Helsley in the 5th round.

2016 -

1st - Delvin Perez (ouch)
1st - Dylan Carlson (ouch)
1st - Dakota Hudson
2nd - Conner Jones (ouch)
3rd - Zac Gallen

They picked up Edman in the 6th and Knizner in the 7th.

2017 -

1st - none (ouch)
2nd - none (ouch)
3rd - Scott Hurst (ouch)

2018 -

1st - Nolan Groman
supp - Griffin Roberts (ouch)
2nd - Luken Baker
3rd - Mateo Gil (ouch)

They picked up Donovan in the 7th and Nootbaar in the 8th.

2019 -

1st - Zack Thompson (ouch)
2nd - Tre Fletcher (double ouch)
3rd - Tony Locey (ouch)

They picked up Pallante in the 4th and Pages in the 6th.

2020 -

1st - Jordan Walker
2nd - Maysn Winn
CB - Tink Hence
2C - Alec Burleson
3rd - Levi Prater (ouch)

Draft only had rounds 1-5.

2021 -

1st - Michael McGreevy
2nd - Joshua Baez (still a work in progress)
CB - Ryan Holgate (ouch)
3rd - Austin Love (ouch)

They drafted Graceffo in the 5th round

2022 -

1st - Coopeer Hjerpe
2nd - Bryson Mautz
3rd - Pete Hansen

They drafted Jimmy Crooks in the 4th and Victor Scott II in the 5th.

2023 -

1st - Chase Davis
2nd - forfeited
3rd - Travis Honeyman

They drafted Quinn Mathews in the 4th.

2024 -

1st - JJ Wetherholt
2nd - forfeited
3rd - Brian Holiday


Wonder why they've had more luck with picks in the 4th-7th round range than in the 1st-3rd round range.

[ScotchMIrish]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

[Ozziesfan41]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

He needed to change his swing. If he was going to be a burlyesque singles hitter with his groundball swing and not walk much either he wasn’t going to make it

[MIDMOBIRDTWO]

Honestly believe they are getting ready to give Walker a refresher at Memphis. If so, I hope they just leave him alone.

[Melville]

Marketing based job assignments rarely work well in professional sports.
Better to have jobs earned over time than gifted prematurely.

[Swuhgen]

Honestly believe they are getting ready to give Walker a refresher at Memphis. If so, I hope they just leave him alone.

What does “leave him alone” mean?
If the kid can’t take instruction or can’t make adjustments, it doesn’t matter where he is.

Seems like he’s a stubborn guy who thinks his way is best.
Clearly he’s wrong.

[MIDMOBIRDTWO]

Honestly believe they are getting ready to give Walker a refresher at Memphis. If so, I hope they just leave him alone.

What does “leave him alone” mean?
If the kid can’t take instruction or can’t make adjustments, it doesn’t matter where he is.

Seems like he’s a stubborn guy who thinks his way is best.
Clearly he’s wrong.

Sink or swim. Cut the cord. He figured out how to play better defense, he can improve his hitting with time.

[Clubmaker2]

an organization that has players play and practice the wrong way until they reach the MLB level, then tries to change them as they face the worlds best pitchers at the MLB level......

[ScotchMIrish]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

He needed to change his swing. If he was going to be a burlyesque singles hitter with his groundball swing and not walk much either he wasn’t going to make it

2023 .276 ba .342 obp 787 ops
2025 ,198 ba .261 obp .534 ops

[renostl]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

He needed to change his swing. If he was going to be a burlyesque singles hitter with his groundball swing and not walk much either he wasn’t going to make it

2023 .276 ba .342 obp 787 ops
2025 ,198 ba .261 obp .534 ops

It's fair, with the results to this point to question the method used with JW.

Would it have worked better to just let him fail or not on his own terms. Let him seek
out answers? Would he have welcomed it as well as he seems to have taken to outfield
instructions. He knew that he wasn't good there, so water to a sponge.

Hindsight is great, but I do wonder.

[ScotchMIrish]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

He needed to change his swing. If he was going to be a burlyesque singles hitter with his groundball swing and not walk much either he wasn’t going to make it

2023 .276 ba .342 obp 787 ops
2025 ,198 ba .261 obp .534 ops

It's fair, with the results to this point to question the method used with JW.

Would it have worked better to just let him fail or not on his own terms. Let him seek
out answers? Would he have welcomed it as well as he seems to have taken to outfield
instructions. He knew that he wasn't good there, so water to a sponge.

Hindsight is great, but I do wonder.

What was wrong with his 2023 numbers?

[Ozziesfan41]

Either teams found a weakness in his game or some analytics guru got inside his head and changed his swing.

IMO, he is mostly in the same spot for the last several months.

He should still get plenty of playing time, at this time, but the team may need to see him as a 4th OFer
until he proves he's something different.
The same with Gorman. Give him PT but let both earn back any prominence in regards to
being a part of the future.

Why did he go from future star to this?

Well first off you missed an option in your either/or above: maybe he was never actually that good and the org mis-evaluated and overhyped him based on Spring Training and AA stats (where he wasn't even top-20 in the league out of 100 qualified hitters).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... jo02.shtml

Rookie year he was great.

Rob Rains has an interesting theory. These guys have a hitting coach with the Cardinals, a hitting coach at Memphis, and sometimes they employ their own private hitting coach. There are so many things going through their head that
they get confused. And the worse it gets, the more coaching they get.

Sometimes during rain delay they play the Willie McGee segment at Mike Shannon's restaurant where Willie told the story about arriving in St Louis and a coach wanted to show him how to swing and Dave Ricketts intervened and stopped the coach. Willie was thankful to Ricketts for doing that because he had refined his swing through years in baseball and knew how to swing. Pete Rose said the same thing. Never change your swing. Your swing is what got you there.

Now it's turn everybody into a robot. Launch angle etc.

He needed to change his swing. If he was going to be a burlyesque singles hitter with his groundball swing and not walk much either he wasn’t going to make it

2023 .276 ba .342 obp 787 ops
2025 ,198 ba .261 obp .534 ops

It's fair, with the results to this point to question the method used with JW.

Would it have worked better to just let him fail or not on his own terms. Let him seek
out answers? Would he have welcomed it as well as he seems to have taken to outfield
instructions. He knew that he wasn't good there, so water to a sponge.

Hindsight is great, but I do wonder.

The cardinals knew the swing wasnt going to play that's why they trade to change it Walker resisted the change and a lot of people on cards talk were championing his resistance to change his swing until it predictably failed then they changed their tune to say oh they messed with his swing! Walker has a lot of problems including taking terrible at bats and that has nothing to do with his swing. The only thing I fault the cardinals for is they didn't identify the problem and fix it in the minor leagues before he even made to the majors but thats because of Mo destroying the development system

[okcardfan]

Aside from amy mechanical flaws with his swing, Walker has an even more fundamental problem: pitch recognition.
He swings at and misses breaking balls a foot off the plate, and he lets fast balls down the middle go by without even starting a swing.
As long as he can't pick out a ball from a strike, he ain't gonna hit much.