liberatore is a bright spot

[jbrach]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.

+1 people ask why can’t the cardinals develop top of the rotation starters? Because when they have pitchers with top of the rotation stuff they rush them to the majors and throw them in the bullpen. They even did to Martinez threw him in the bullpen and wasted him for two years before finally putting him in the rotation and he was an all star his first season then had three very good years before injuries derailed him. Liebratore even said in an interview it’s helped him immensely preparing to start when he knows he’s in the rotation and knows when he is going to start instead of coming to the park not knowing if he would start or be in the bullpen. At least they didn’t do the dumb thing and keep him in the bullpen like they have most of their other high end pitchers maybe they are finally learning

like they did with waino?...give it up already

[Ozziesfan41]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.

+1 people ask why can’t the cardinals develop top of the rotation starters? Because when they have pitchers with top of the rotation stuff they rush them to the majors and throw them in the bullpen. They even did to Martinez threw him in the bullpen and wasted him for two years before finally putting him in the rotation and he was an all star his first season then had three very good years before injuries derailed him. Liebratore even said in an interview it’s helped him immensely preparing to start when he knows he’s in the rotation and knows when he is going to start instead of coming to the park not knowing if he would start or be in the bullpen. At least they didn’t do the dumb thing and keep him in the bullpen like they have most of their other high end pitchers maybe they are finally learning

like they did with waino?...give it up already

Dumb comp Waino already had a good fastball a hard curve that was his out pitch and good change up that’s what made him a top 50 prospect he wasn’t a pitcher that needed to develop his secondaries which moving to the bullpen would disrupt give it up already. The team also had a guy by the name of Dave Duncan at the time to help develop him

[An Old Friend]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.

ridiculous, rosy threw way too many pitches as a closer and clearly could not have managed as a starter...helesley is the same...both belong in the BP...same could have been said about chapman who started as a starter but became dominant in the bullpen...a guy like rosy who always had high pitch counts for his inning of work couldnt have survived as a starter

I don’t know why you’re not getting it, but I’m not going to try. It feels like a choice you’re making.

Other teams don’t take their top starting pitcher prospects and put them in the bullpen before they even have the opportunity to fail as a starter. It’s crazy that you’re supportive of that strategy.

[An Old Friend]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.

+1 people ask why can’t the cardinals develop top of the rotation starters? Because when they have pitchers with top of the rotation stuff they rush them to the majors and throw them in the bullpen. They even did to Martinez threw him in the bullpen and wasted him for two years before finally putting him in the rotation and he was an all star his first season then had three very good years before injuries derailed him. Liebratore even said in an interview it’s helped him immensely preparing to start when he knows he’s in the rotation and knows when he is going to start instead of coming to the park not knowing if he would start or be in the bullpen. At least they didn’t do the dumb thing and keep him in the bullpen like they have most of their other high end pitchers maybe they are finally learning

like they did with waino?...give it up already

Dumb comp Waino already had a good fastball a hard curve that was his out pitch and good change up that’s what made him a top 50 prospect he wasn’t a pitcher that needed to develop his secondaries which moving to the bullpen would disrupt give it up already. The team also had a guy by the name of Dave Duncan at the time to help develop him

Also, the “it worked out ok with one pitcher 2 decades ago so it’s totally the right strategy” is a terrible argument… that he’s sticking to.

Willful ignorance.

[Ozziesfan41]

I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.

They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.

How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?

Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.

I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?

The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.

Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.

Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.

Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.

ridiculous, rosy threw way too many pitches as a closer and clearly could not have managed as a starter...helesley is the same...both belong in the BP...same could have been said about chapman who started as a starter but became dominant in the bullpen...a guy like rosy who always had high pitch counts for his inning of work couldnt have survived as a starter

I don’t know why you’re not getting it, but I’m not going to try. It feels like a choice you’re making.

Other teams don’t take their top starting pitcher prospects and put them in the bullpen before they even have the opportunity to fail as a starter. It’s crazy that you’re supportive of that strategy.

That’s why they have only been developing back end of
The rotation pitchers those are the only ones they allow to develop as starters. If this wasn’t a reset year where young players are allowed to develop no matter what Liberatore would be in the bullpen tjey would have overspent on a guy like leake or signed an old veteran and he would be defending them not letting him start by saying he can’t get right handers out he will never be a good starter hes a reliever. How he defends a flawed system of debelopment is crazy

[Mort Gage]

He has 28 Ks to just two walks. Insane, especially for a guy who is getting his first extended run in the rotation. No slight to McGreevy or Matz but I'm happy Bloom insisted on Liberatore in the rotation. It took a while but they are finally getting a return on the Arozarena trade.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Develop them as starters and use them as starters until they show by health, or performance they can't do it. The only time I might want to see a young (minor league) starter in the major league bullpen is if they are maxed out on innings and they want to give them a taste of the big leagues at the end of the season.

[11WSChamps]

When evaluating the lack of front line starting talent in this organization anyone cementing Liberatore as an only BP option clearly has no idea of what they're talking about.

Whether it's now, a year ago or three years ago.