mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:39 amThey didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Absolutely. They gave him a few weeks notice that one year that he begged them to let him start. It predicably failed, but had they not fallen in love with 105mph and plucked him from A ball, who knows what he could be doing for us right now.
And it's already been mentioned by others, but Helsley and Rosenthal are basically the same situation. Insane that they kept doing that. Hopefully Bloom stops the madness.
Yeah - Rosenthal was put in the ML bullpen at age 22 after about 290 milb innings, Helsley at age 24 after about 375 milb innings, Hicks at age 21 after about 170 milb innings, and Liberatore at age 22 after about 350 milb innings.
I have slightly less of a problem with it if you clearly expect the guy to be your closer (which was never the case with Liberatore). IMO, you can justify foregoing #4/#5 SP potential IF you are pretty certain the guy has what it takes to be an effective ML closer.
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm
Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up
I never viewed Libby as being stupid.
The cardinals were stupid for jerking him between the rotation and bullpen instead of letting him start.
Very. One of the other but the flip flopping was bizarre
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.
I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.
I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?
The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.
Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.
Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.
Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
He was only 21 and had pitched less than 170 minor league innings when they rushed him to the ML bullpen. Seems premature to decide that he was never going to develop secondary pitches.
I've been hearing this Fantasy about Hicks for years, he never had the secondary pitches to be anything more than he is now.....a MEH starting pitcher (career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP).
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.
Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑25 Apr 2025 20:38 pm
Thanks to them finally deciding to let him start instead of jerking him between the rotation and bullpen. Took a couple
Of years of stupidity but they finally wised up
Thank C. Bloom
Mo/Oli had him slated for the pen' (again!) until the final week of STing when Bloom stepped in.
(He also was the one who slotted Noot into the leadoff spot after the two morons had him hitting third to start out STing)
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
He was only 21 and had pitched less than 170 minor league innings when they rushed him to the ML bullpen. Seems premature to decide that he was never going to develop secondary pitches.
I've been hearing this Fantasy about Hicks for years, he never had the secondary pitches to be anything more than he is now.....a MEH starting pitcher (career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP).
Do you have to practice being stupid, or is it totally natural?
They pulled him out of starting pitcher development to put him in the major league bullpen. There was no lane to develop secondaries. Not following a proper development track is how you set players up for failure.
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Rosenthal and Helsley have been their most egregious strategic development failures. Very good starting pitcher prospects shoved in the pen to cover Mo’s roster gaps, never making a single major league start between them.
I am guessing this is a joke...both were excellent closers and both would have been busts as starters....I mean really?
The only joke here is your response. The Cardinals WASTED very good pitching prospects by pushing them to the major league bullpen before even vetting them as starters. It's a gross misuse of resources and a big part of the reason why they find themselves where they are today.
Rosenthal had a 4 pitch mix and a lot of Roy Oswalt in him as a minor league starter and they bailed. He was a consensus top-50 prospect going into 2013 and they never had him make a single major league start.
Helsley went 11-3 with a 2.72 ERA / 1.15 WHIP across 3 levels as a 22 year old with 137 Ks in 132 IP. That was 2017. He was in the major league bullpen in 2019 and never made a single major league start.
Egregious mismanagement of big minor league arm talent.
+1 people ask why can’t the cardinals develop top of the rotation starters? Because when they have pitchers with top of the rotation stuff they rush them to the majors and throw them in the bullpen. They even did to Martinez threw him in the bullpen and wasted him for two years before finally putting him in the rotation and he was an all star his first season then had three very good years before injuries derailed him. Liebratore even said in an interview it’s helped him immensely preparing to start when he knows he’s in the rotation and knows when he is going to start instead of coming to the park not knowing if he would start or be in the bullpen. At least they didn’t do the dumb thing and keep him in the bullpen like they have most of their other high end pitchers maybe they are finally learning
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
He was only 21 and had pitched less than 170 minor league innings when they rushed him to the ML bullpen. Seems premature to decide that he was never going to develop secondary pitches.
I've been hearing this Fantasy about Hicks for years, he never had the secondary pitches to be anything more than he is now.....a MEH starting pitcher (career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP).
Do you have to practice being stupid, or is it totally natural?
They pulled him out of starting pitcher development to put him in the major league bullpen. There was no lane to develop secondaries. Not following a proper development track is how you set players up for failure.
+1 in the bullpen you don’t develop secondaries you use your best two maybe three pitches and abandon everything else. If he had been left in the minors starting he could have worked on the secondaries
I'm pulling for Libby. He looks very comfortable. I'm just not ready to declare him a good starter yet. 31 innings in he's off to a good start. But it's just that. 31 innings.
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 08:24 am
I'm not saying that he would have been better quicker if they would have not screwed around with him for the last three years, but I don't see how anyone could say that they handled him correctly. I wonder how close the organization came to just giving up on him.
They didn't handle him correctly, and arguably they may not have handled someone like Jordan Hicks correctly either. Hicks certainly hadn't failed as a SP prospect when the Cardinals rushed him to the majors in 2018 at age 21 and made him a RP for years.
How much better might Hicks be now if the Cardinals had let him develop as a SP through 2018, 2019, etc.?
Hicks never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter, Cardinals correctly identified that.
That’s what happens when you go from A ball to a MLB bullpen. Cardinals never gave Hicks a chance.
Or they could tell he wasn't starter material, proven out by his career starting pitcher 4.73 ERA/1.44 WHiP.
You were saying the same thing about liebratore hes not a starter! Look at his rotation numbers and look at his bullpen numbers! Hes a reliever! It’s been proven hes not a starter!
Strummer Jones wrote: ↑26 Apr 2025 00:39 am
I think we all need to also acknowledge Liberatore's role in this too.
Yeah, he got shafted with some dumb decisions by those above him more than once.
Yeah, he was probably rushed too fast after the Arozarena trade, thanks to Randy going ape in big play-off spots.
However, even when he was afforded some runway in the rotation, Lib didn't exactly help himself, either. He's really put in the work to smooth out his flaws that we all saw. Credit to him. I didn't think he could do it, but he's certainly making a fool of me. I think one could argue that he's been our best starter this year. Everyone's had a stinker, except Liberatore. Even his worst start he still gave us 6 innings.
It also didn’t help that as soon as we traded for him, the season shutdown for Covid and he was forced to sit out a year while the guy he was traded for went on a run in the playoffs.
