This organization deserves failure

[Stlcardsblues]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Why are you? You never talk baseball. All you do is defend Mo and question peoples credibility when they say mean things about him

Say mean things about him? How many posts do you post is that all you do?

You still ignored my question about why do you care who is in here.

[Banner29]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Why are you? You never talk baseball. All you do is defend Mo and question peoples credibility when they say mean things about him

Say mean things about him? How many posts do you post is that all you do?

How many posts do I post? Is that all I do, is post?

Yeah I reckon so….

[icon]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Last time I looked, the Braves and Rangers weren't near an ocean. The Cubs, either, and they all manage to draw players. And Philly, New York and Boston aren't exactly beach towns.

But Tampa and Miami are very near the ocean, and about all they can draw is flies and mosquitoes, but not players or fans.

It's the money. Show them the money.

[icon]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

And maybe with another organization that could properly develop players, not all of those top prospects would be flops to date.

[Ozziesfan41]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Last time I looked, the Braves and Rangers weren't near an ocean. The Cubs, either, and they all manage to draw players. And Philly, New York and Boston aren't exactly beach towns.

But Tampa and Miami are very near the ocean, and about all they can draw is flies, but not players or fans.

It's the money. Show them the money.

+1 if a team isnt willing to pay of course no one is going to want to go there.

[Cranny]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Last time I looked, the Braves and Rangers weren't near an ocean. The Cubs, either, and they all manage to draw players. And Philly, New York and Boston aren't exactly beach towns.

But Tampa and Miami are very near the ocean, and about all they can draw is flies, but not players or fans.

It's the money. Show them the money.

+1 if a team isnt willing to pay of course no one is going to want to go there.

Most small market to mid-market teams can't "pay" like the big market teams. So I guess no one wants to go there?

[desertrat23]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Last time I looked, the Braves and Rangers weren't near an ocean. The Cubs, either, and they all manage to draw players. And Philly, New York and Boston aren't exactly beach towns.

But Tampa and Miami are very near the ocean, and about all they can draw is flies, but not players or fans.

It's the money. Show them the money.

+1 if a team isnt willing to pay of course no one is going to want to go there.

Most small market to mid-market teams can't "pay" like the big market teams. So I guess no one wants to go there?

No they can’t, but I would imagine they can pay closer than you or I would think, especially if they've built a competent player development model to churn out cost-controlled core players.

The Cardinals’ problem has been that they couldn’t be bothered to keep up their development system, so they had to go the FA route, and they missed there. Double whammy.

[Cranny]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Last time I looked, the Braves and Rangers weren't near an ocean. The Cubs, either, and they all manage to draw players. And Philly, New York and Boston aren't exactly beach towns.

But Tampa and Miami are very near the ocean, and about all they can draw is flies, but not players or fans.

It's the money. Show them the money.

+1 if a team isnt willing to pay of course no one is going to want to go there.

Most small market to mid-market teams can't "pay" like the big market teams. So I guess no one wants to go there?

No they can’t, but I would imagine they can pay closer than you or I would think, especially if they've built a competent player development model to churn out cost-controlled core players.

The Cardinals’ problem has been that they couldn’t be bothered to keep up their development system, so they had to go the FA route, and they missed there. Double whammy.

I wonder why some prospects do fine when they come up, and then slide backward. Like Gorman and Walker. Major league pitchers adjust to them and they don't adjust back. Is that a minor league development problem or a major league coaching problem?

[Hoosier59]

Well, let’s also not forget that the Cardinals had some players with some pretty high trade value, but they held on to them until they had little to no value at all. They drafted some pretty good players, but failed to develope them.
We are in that same boat now. We have some players that have been very highly regarded around the league, but so far they haven’t met the expectations either!

[Cranny]

Well, let’s also not forget that the Cardinals had some players with some pretty high trade value, but they held on to them until they had little to no value at all. They drafted some pretty good players, but failed to develope them.
We are in that same boat now. We have some players that have been very highly regarded around the league, but so far they haven’t met the expectations either!

Again, is it a developmental problem or a major league coaching problem (both with the hitting and pitching coaches).

[Hoosier59]

Well, let’s also not forget that the Cardinals had some players with some pretty high trade value, but they held on to them until they had little to no value at all. They drafted some pretty good players, but failed to develope them.
We are in that same boat now. We have some players that have been very highly regarded around the league, but so far they haven’t met the expectations either!

Again, is it a developmental problem or a major league coaching problem (both with the hitting and pitching coaches).

I agree Cranny. Why is it that once they get to St. Louis they suddenly start to struggle? I know the Major Leagues are tough, but you have seasoned veterans also struggling, it kinda points toward an organizational issue! From the front office on down to Oli! Their game strategies and game planning has to be questioned. New coaches won’t change a thing if they don’t change how they do things!

[Dazepster]

Well, let’s also not forget that the Cardinals had some players with some pretty high trade value, but they held on to them until they had little to no value at all. They drafted some pretty good players, but failed to develope them.
We are in that same boat now. We have some players that have been very highly regarded around the league, but so far they haven’t met the expectations either!

Again, is it a developmental problem or a major league coaching problem (both with the hitting and pitching coaches).

Who hired those guys and continues to employ them?

Do you think it is conceivable that those are the ones responsible for our current predicament?


And why hasn't that been fixed yet?

[Cranny]

Well, let’s also not forget that the Cardinals had some players with some pretty high trade value, but they held on to them until they had little to no value at all. They drafted some pretty good players, but failed to develope them.
We are in that same boat now. We have some players that have been very highly regarded around the league, but so far they haven’t met the expectations either!

Again, is it a developmental problem or a major league coaching problem (both with the hitting and pitching coaches).

Who hired those guys and continues to employ them?

Do you think it is conceivable that those are the ones responsible for our current predicament?


And why hasn't that been fixed yet?

Sorry, Daze, I won’t bite and go to bashing upstream. But it may be the coaching. Let’s see how the new hitting coach does. Obviously it’s been a problem and they’ve made a move to try to fix it.
Based upon Skip’s recommendation.

[Baseball Savant]

When number 5 and number 10 walked out the door, the winning attitude ended

BDW and his sweater buddy Mo decided after 2011, it was their way or no way.

They shove nostalgia, red jackets and bobbleheads down your throat, they will bring back washed up ex Cards for kicks and giggles

They have not developed pitching or hitting labs like other teams.

Look at the Shildt firing, he probably hit a nerve with the Arrogant owner and GM and was dismissed pronto.

BDW should sell the team to a new age owner with a hunger to win, not one stuck in nostalgia and b.s.

Took the fan base a decade to see the light, but the tables have turned

Boo the arrogant owner and GM on opening day, send a message loud and clear

Millionaire misery index will kick in hard on BDW

[Cranny]

When number 5 and number 10 walked out the door, the winning attitude ended

BDW and his sweater buddy Mo decided after 2011, it was their way or no way.

They shove nostalgia, red jackets and bobbleheads down your throat, they will bring back washed up ex Cards for kicks and giggles

They have not developed pitching or hitting labs like other teams.

Look at the Shildt firing, he probably hit a nerve with the Arrogant owner and GM and was dismissed pronto.

BDW should sell the team to a new age owner with a hunger to win, not one stuck in nostalgia and b.s.

Took the fan base a decade to see the light, but the tables have turned

Boo the arrogant owner and GM on opening day, send a message loud and clear

Millionaire misery index will kick in hard on BDW

How nasty and childish.

[Baseball Savant]

Cranny

It’s the truth

Sometimes it’s ugly

Deal with it