This organization deserves failure

[ilcubuffs]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

[Cranny]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

Wong - 2 time Gold Glove winner
Carpenter - 3 time All Star
DeJong - 2nd in ROY voting. 1 time All Star
Hudson - 16-7 in 2019. 5th in ROY voting
Bader - 6th in ROY voting. Won Gold Glove
Edman - You’re right. Should still be a Cardinal

Just some examples.

[Youboughtit]

The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Show them you’re serious about winning. Build the best player development system in baseball, not let it rot through cost-cutting. Make reasonable offers to free agents, not lowballs. And when they don’t sign, make public statements like “X is a great player, and we wish him the best. We look forward to continuing to try to show premier free agents why we’re the Yankees of the NL and a place people want to play.” Ever notice how when the big boys get signed, Mo always says “we were never really in it?” He’s telling the whole industry that they’re not interested!

Above all, make every move, every statement, every transaction, send the message that you want to win a championship. Not a wild card, not a division, a ring. Even if you fall short, you’re showing the fans, the other teams, the agents, and the players that you’re serious. We haven’t done that in years.

I agree with you, rat. Deliver a winning message to everyone. Strive for greatness. It hasn’t been that long ago. Some of us remember.

They strove for greatness when they traded for Goldy and Arenado.

Yes. Those were both fantastic deals. But a couple of things:
1. Striving for greatness is a constant thing, not an every-few-years thing.
2. They never finished the job! How many of us at the time of each of those deals could tell they were great adds, but weren’t enough to fill the major roster holes, be it pitching or outfield bat? It’s building a team that’s a serious contender to win a ring, not a division.

Finish the job by signing more expensive players when it’s not in the budget?

But they paid Wainwright and Mikolas $40m per together that entire time.

[imadangman]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

[Stlcardsblues]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

What’s the one big piece?

The story broke as the information which was taken was given to Deadspin who published Luhnow’s notes. Why would the team steal the information then hand over all of Luhnows notes so that Deadspin could publish Luhnow’s notes?

[Stlcardsblues]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Odd question. Why are you curious that I read this board?

[Banner29]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Why are you? You never talk baseball. All you do is defend Mo and question peoples credibility when they say mean things about him

[nighthawk]

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

[3dender]

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

R.I.P. Gene Hackman

[thetank2]

Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Why are you? You never talk baseball. All you do is defend Mo and question peoples credibility when they say mean things about him

Say mean things about him? How many posts do you post is that all you do?

[desertrat23]

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Sure it does. Why wouldn't it? They've taken fan support for granted for YEARS.

[Futuregm2]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

[Goldfan]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

They’ve always had the steady role players as you listed BUT Also had Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Molina, C. Carpenter, Waino, Holliday, Berkman, Beltran, Walker. They attempted to replicate with Goldy and NA but they’re not leaders or winners and haven’t come close to a Cy Young SP in many years

[Cranny]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Depends on how you define a "star" player. And don't most of them come from the top 2/3 of the 1st round of the draft, which we simply haven't seen until recently.

[imadangman]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

That's exactly my point. What a difference it makes for just one of them to come through vs being a total bust.

When you look back and see what came of Pujols, Molina. What do you attribute that to, is it all luck? Or is there something tangible you can attribute to either the rich veteran leadership around those teams, or the culture that led to the development of those two into being Hall of Fame players? Pujols talks in interviews about what it meant to have all those veterans around. Was that something tangible.

Is it just bad luck the organization has run into in the last 10 years, or is it something you can put a finger on.

Like I wrote in the post above, take Pujols away from the early 2000s and tell me how different that decade goes. To have a 13th round pick turn into an inner circle HOF player just can't be replicated again and again.

[NYCardsFan]

Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Depends on how you define a "star" player. And don't most of them come from the top 2/3 of the 1st round of the draft, which we simply haven't seen until recently.

Here's one (very) low threshold definition for "star" one could use: a player who has had at least 2 seasons of all-star caliber production, defined as >= 4.0 fWAR (per Fangraphs). Granted, most people would consider a "star" to be a perennial all-star caliber player, but let's intentionally keep the bar low and just define "star" as a player who was all-star caliber for multiple years (with 2 being the minimum for "multiple").

Based on that very low threshold, the Cardinals have produced exactly one (1) "star"-level player since 2010: Matt Carpenter (who had four >= 4.0 WAR seasons). No one else from the Cardinals farm system has come close. Edman had one >= 4.0 WAR season. O'Neill and Flaherty had one each. Carlos Martinez had three >= 3.0 WAR seasons, but never had a >= 4.0 WAR season. Bader, Wong, Hudson, Wacha, and DeJong all had none. So it has been 15 years since the Cardinals farm system graduated a player who went on to produce at least 2 all-star caliber seasons.

As for your second question, the answer is "no." For example, just look at the last four "stars" produced by the Cardinals farm system: Pujols, Molina, Wainwright, and Carpenter. None was a top 2-3 of the first round pick.

FGM is right: ex Carpenter, the Cardinals just have not produced any "star" caliber players from their farm system in the last 15 years (and Carpenter goes all the way back to 2011-2012). To their credit, they have produced a lot of solid starters (defined as 2-3 WAR), but no "stars" who can stack 4-6 WAR (or more) at one position.