John Rooney interviews Flores & Cerfolio on Cardinal podcast

[ramfandan]

Podcast video from Dec. 10th (two days ago ).. 41 min. 35 sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQdrsiaKSs

Good interview by Rooney with some excellent questions for Randy Flores and Rob Cerfolio
Players discussed include : JJ, Doyle, Mautz, and more...

[CNYFan]

Thanks. The Fall League discussion was illuminating as to why they sent the guys they did.

[CCard]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

[mattmitchl44]

Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats.

Nobody really disagrees with that - however, the key is that you have to spend money wisely. If you are a team like the Cardinals, when you are ready to "win now", you can't afford to have expensive contracts on your books that are "underwater." So when you spend and exactly who you spend on are of vital importance.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

I didn't listen to the interview, so maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but in my view the drafting and developing isn't trying to turn lesser players into stars. To me it's more about identifying talented players and then developing them to the point where they can bring those talents out in them, so that they can develop into the player that the team thinks they can be.

Take a player like McGreevy. I don't think anyone drafted him thinking that they can take this guy, who most agreed had limited upside, and make him an ace. They want to see him reach his potential, but sure it's possible that maybe they can get more out of him. I don't think anyone expects more, though. But when you draft a player like Liam Doyle, he already has the potential to be a star, but they need to do some development to get him to that point.

[CCard]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

I didn't listen to the interview, so maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but in my view the drafting and developing isn't trying to turn lesser players into stars. To me it's more about identifying talented players and then developing them to the point where they can bring those talents out in them, so that they can develop into the player that the team thinks they can be.

Take a player like McGreevy. I don't think anyone drafted him thinking that they can take this guy, who most agreed had limited upside, and make him an ace. They want to see him reach his potential, but sure it's possible that maybe they can get more out of him. I don't think anyone expects more, though. But when you draft a player like Liam Doyle, he already has the potential to be a star, but they need to do some development to get him to that point.

I'll concede the point that they are more likely to help the more talented players to achieve greatness. In that respect I agree, but in any minor leagues you have at most a handful of those types, but you fill in with the best you can for depth. The problem is that depth usually doesn't equal talent but sometimes is just a guy buying time as a warm body. Doyle, for all the fanfare that he's received, hasn't thrown a ball in the majors yet. He may never. When/if he does there's as good or better chance that he fails. That's why you can't put all your eggs into the draft to win approach. You just have to acquire major league talent to win. You just have to.

[CCard]

Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats.

Nobody really disagrees with that - however, the key is that you have to spend money wisely. If you are a team like the Cardinals, when you are ready to "win now", you can't afford to have expensive contracts on your books that are "underwater." So when you spend and exactly who you spend on are of vital importance.

Nobody knows that "wisely" part you speak of. It's all about taking a chance that a talent will perform. Brett Cecil should have performed better than he did. Some say his peripherals were maybe a warning sign, and that is the informed opinion side of it, but if he had performed well the Cards would have looked smart. The battlefield is littered with the "wisely" corpses of players that should've but didn't perform. Look at Ozuna. If he'd performed, who knows.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

It is helpful that they do these interviews. They aren't just rebuilding a farm system, they are rebuilding the perception of the Cardinals development system to the rest of the industry. When people in the industry feel like there is extensive and comprehensive teaching and training going on, your prospects will be ranked higher. Teams will value your prospects more highly when it comes to trades if they believe your development system is good. Keep doing the interviews.

[Cranny]

Excellent interview. Especially liked the part about how the new Jupiter facility will enhance the development of players in the off season.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I'll concede the point that they are more likely to help the more talented players to achieve greatness. In that respect I agree, but in any minor leagues you have at most a handful of those types, but you fill in with the best you can for depth. The problem is that depth usually doesn't equal talent but sometimes is just a guy buying time as a warm body. Doyle, for all the fanfare that he's received, hasn't thrown a ball in the majors yet. He may never. When/if he does there's as good or better chance that he fails. That's why you can't put all your eggs into the draft to win approach. You just have to acquire major league talent to win. You just have to.

Again........yes, no one is saying you don't go out and get major league talent to win. You so, however, want a minor league system where you are going to hit more on players than not. You're still going to have first round picks bust out, there's no way to avoid that. At the same time, though, maybe some of those later round picks you get really lucky and they become stars. That happens too. Either way you want to have a big enough pool of talent that is affordable so that you can go out and get those major league players.

We are not going out and getting major league talent right now because we are trying to build that infrastructure so that, in a year or two, we are competitive enough so that if we sign free agents or trade for veterans, they have enough of a supporting cast to actually win. But that doesn't happen overnight.

[mattmitchl44]

Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats.

Nobody really disagrees with that - however, the key is that you have to spend money wisely. If you are a team like the Cardinals, when you are ready to "win now", you can't afford to have expensive contracts on your books that are "underwater." So when you spend and exactly who you spend on are of vital importance.

Nobody knows that "wisely" part you speak of. It's all about taking a chance that a talent will perform. Brett Cecil should have performed better than he did. Some say his peripherals were maybe a warning sign, and that is the informed opinion side of it, but if he had performed well the Cards would have looked smart. The battlefield is littered with the "wisely" corpses of players that should've but didn't perform. Look at Ozuna. If he'd performed, who knows.

"Wisely" starts from, first, defining your needs as precisely as possible. You do that by FIRST establishing what "core" of players you can develop from within your organization and THEN knowing where your holes are that you need to fill. In the Cardinals current roster state, their "core" of players isn't well developed enough to clearly define what the holes are that they will need to fill when that "core" is developed enough for them to be competitive.

[NYCardsFan]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

It is helpful that they do these interviews. They aren't just rebuilding a farm system, they are rebuilding the perception of the Cardinals development system to the rest of the industry. When people in the industry feel like there is extensive and comprehensive teaching and training going on, your prospects will be ranked higher. Teams will value your prospects more highly when it comes to trades if they believe your development system is good. Keep doing the interviews.

Also, if you are going into somewhat of a rebuild/reset/restructure, it's helpful to be transparent with the fan base and build confidence that the organization has a plan and a clear sense of direction. Unfortunately, that kind of communication has been lacking the past few years, probably because the FO/ownership didn't have a confident sense of direction to convey.

[mattmitchl44]

I'll concede the point that they are more likely to help the more talented players to achieve greatness. In that respect I agree, but in any minor leagues you have at most a handful of those types, but you fill in with the best you can for depth. The problem is that depth usually doesn't equal talent but sometimes is just a guy buying time as a warm body. Doyle, for all the fanfare that he's received, hasn't thrown a ball in the majors yet. He may never. When/if he does there's as good or better chance that he fails. That's why you can't put all your eggs into the draft to win approach. You just have to acquire major league talent to win. You just have to.

A "best case" Cardinals roster is going to have:

- maybe five star/superstar level players
- a few above average players
- and a whole bunch of players from ML average down to bench/role players

Developing players that fill any of those roles from within you organization helps.

And the simple fact will be that the Cardinals will never be able to out and simply buy five star/superstar level players who are being paid full market value. They can pay for two, maybe three. But to ever reach their "best case" roster, they have to develop 2-3 star/superstar level players themselves.

Same for the population of a few above average players.

[CCard]

Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats.

Nobody really disagrees with that - however, the key is that you have to spend money wisely. If you are a team like the Cardinals, when you are ready to "win now", you can't afford to have expensive contracts on your books that are "underwater." So when you spend and exactly who you spend on are of vital importance.

Nobody knows that "wisely" part you speak of. It's all about taking a chance that a talent will perform. Brett Cecil should have performed better than he did. Some say his peripherals were maybe a warning sign, and that is the informed opinion side of it, but if he had performed well the Cards would have looked smart. The battlefield is littered with the "wisely" corpses of players that should've but didn't perform. Look at Ozuna. If he'd performed, who knows.

"Wisely" starts from, first, defining your needs as precisely as possible. You do that by FIRST establishing what "core" of players you can develop from within your organization and THEN knowing where your holes are that you need to fill. In the Cardinals current roster state, their "core" of players isn't well developed enough to clearly define what the holes are that they will need to fill when that "core" is developed enough for them to be competitive.

Translation....Lose big now to win years down the road. No thanks.

[CCard]

I'll concede the point that they are more likely to help the more talented players to achieve greatness. In that respect I agree, but in any minor leagues you have at most a handful of those types, but you fill in with the best you can for depth. The problem is that depth usually doesn't equal talent but sometimes is just a guy buying time as a warm body. Doyle, for all the fanfare that he's received, hasn't thrown a ball in the majors yet. He may never. When/if he does there's as good or better chance that he fails. That's why you can't put all your eggs into the draft to win approach. You just have to acquire major league talent to win. You just have to.

Again........yes, no one is saying you don't go out and get major league talent to win. You so, however, want a minor league system where you are going to hit more on players than not. You're still going to have first round picks bust out, there's no way to avoid that. At the same time, though, maybe some of those later round picks you get really lucky and they become stars. That happens too. Either way you want to have a big enough pool of talent that is affordable so that you can go out and get those major league players.

We are not going out and getting major league talent right now because we are trying to build that infrastructure so that, in a year or two, we are competitive enough so that if we sign free agents or trade for veterans, they have enough of a supporting cast to actually win. But that doesn't happen overnight.

Again. Lose now for years so that we can go out and sign major league talent that might or might not even be available. Or even worse. Take the talent you developed that supposed to be your basis for winning and trade it for established talent. Does that sound like a logical plan to you? For all the hoopla about Bloom and the big draft/develop process there sure are very few trophies.

[CCard]

I always liked Flores. And now that I hear him speak I'm even more impressed. He seems very intelligent and knowledgeable. Cerfolio on the other hand, seems much more (I can't think of the word). He almost seems like he's reading off of a fan site. I don't know much about him but I assume that Bloom does. It was a pretty good interview but there was a lot of repeating that it takes an army and yada yada. Drafting and developing is great but it isn't the end all be all. Nobody goes to the WS just by drafting and developing. You got to spend the ducats. See the Dodgers, Yankee's etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that process at all, but I get tired of hearing how all this "teaching" is going to turn a lesser talent into some kind of star player.

It is helpful that they do these interviews. They aren't just rebuilding a farm system, they are rebuilding the perception of the Cardinals development system to the rest of the industry. When people in the industry feel like there is extensive and comprehensive teaching and training going on, your prospects will be ranked higher. Teams will value your prospects more highly when it comes to trades if they believe your development system is good. Keep doing the interviews.

I highly doubt that. Teams look at other teams players based on how they perform. Donovan is a hot commodity because of his on field performance not because he came up "the Cardinal Way". It's funny that people act like the Cards didn't have any minor league system at all. Springfield won their championship very recently. You can't tell me that was on Bloom.