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ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:10 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

imadangman wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:20 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

imadangman wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:20 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:27 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:10 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

Fair point/question. First, I would not sign any this offseason. I would want to see exactly what holes the Cards have going into 2027 and see if the Cards are close enough to contend. With respect to pitchers, they need to find guys in the 3-5 year range. Don't go beyond their age 34 season. With hitters, I wouldn't go beyond their age 35 or 36 season with a contract. Some on this board have advocated for Kyle Tucker who is likely to get 10 years through his age 39 season. The Cards can't get involved in that. While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now. If Doyle is who we hope and Liberatore and McGreevy are good back end guys, 2 more Sonny Gray's on 3 year deals and we have a real contender.

On the bat side, I am hoping a line-up of

Winn SS
Wetherholdt 3B
Herrera LF
Contreras 1B
Baez RF
Burleson DH
Donovan 2B
Bernal C
Scott/Church CF

is sufficient. If not, then adding 1 MOTOB again on a contract with reasonable term hopefully gets us there. Notice how I left out Nootbar, Gorman, Arenado and Walker. They are not going to make it...However, if they collectively can bring back 1 TOR SP via a prospect trade, it makes the cost reasonable.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:32 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:20 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

The Cards have to hit on at least 1 prospect don't we? The Cards have produced some solid major leaguers, Winn, Donovan and Burleson. But none that are huge stars. They really need Wetherholdt and Baez to be that and maybe Herrera.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:27 pm

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:10 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

Fair point/question. First, I would not sign any this offseason. I would want to see exactly what holes the Cards have going into 2027 and see if the Cards are close enough to contend. With respect to pitchers, they need to find guys in the 3-5 year range. Don't go beyond their age 34 season. With hitters, I wouldn't go beyond their age 35 or 36 season with a contract. Some on this board have advocated for Kyle Tucker who is likely to get 10 years through his age 39 season. The Cards can't get involved in that. While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now. If Doyle is who we hope and Liberatore and McGreevy are good back end guys, 2 more Sonny Gray's on 3 year deals and we have a real contender.

On the bat side, I am hoping a line-up of

Winn SS
Wetherholdt 3B
Herrera LF
Contreras 1B
Baez RF
Burleson DH
Donovan 2B
Bernal C
Scott/Church CF

is sufficient. If not, then adding 1 MOTOB again on a contract with reasonable term hopefully gets us there. Notice how I left out Nootbar, Gorman, Arenado and Walker. They are not going to make it...However, if they collectively can bring back 1 TOR SP via a prospect trade, it makes the cost reasonable.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:27 pm While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now.

imadangman wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 17:25 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:32 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:20 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:05 pm It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

The Cards have to hit on at least 1 prospect don't we? The Cards have produced some solid major leaguers, Winn, Donovan and Burleson. But none that are huge stars. They really need Wetherholdt and Baez to be that and maybe Herrera.

Baez in my mind gives us a second chance at what we might not get to see Walker become.

3B Wetherholt
2B Donovan
LF/DH Herrera
1B Contreras
DH/LF Burleson
RF Baez
SS Winn
C Bernal
CF Scott/Church

Run that out there for 2026, it'll be fine for the purpose of that season. But know that Contreras isn't a longterm piece. Also know that the lineup would look very very deep if you can eventually find enough offense to have Herrera slide down to 5th.

Don't forget about Blaze Jordan, although he has sucked at Memphis so far. He seems like a good buffer to have on hand for Contreras.

Catfish4U wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 17:43 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 15:27 pm While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now.

The Cardinals have to be VERY disappointed in Sonny Gray thus far! Signed for 3 years and $75 million he has only produced 3.0 bWAR through most of the first two years. At 36 years old in November we should not expect a great year next year! jmho

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025 14:34 pm Most aren't very happy with the state of Cardinals baseball presently, but I would think the Texas Rangers have to be more disappointed than us. Both teams started the day with 63-65 records and both teams are an identical 5 games out of the last wildcard spot. The difference is we entered the season as a re-set, or in a transition. The Rangers thought they might be World Series contenders. They have a $213M payroll, the #1 pitching staff in the majors by both ERA and WHIP. They have a position player roster of mashers who have failed to mash. Disappointing times in Arlington.