More Disappointed Than Us

[Talkin' Baseball]

Most aren't very happy with the state of Cardinals baseball presently, but I would think the Texas Rangers have to be more disappointed than us. Both teams started the day with 63-65 records and both teams are an identical 5 games out of the last wildcard spot. The difference is we entered the season as a re-set, or in a transition. The Rangers thought they might be World Series contenders. They have a $213M payroll, the #1 pitching staff in the majors by both ERA and WHIP. They have a position player roster of mashers who have failed to mash. Disappointing times in Arlington.

[DickyBennett]

Bochy last run in Texas?

Is Schumacher being groomed to take over soon?

[ICCFIM2]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

[BrockFloodMaris]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

[imadangman]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

[ICCFIM2]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

Fair point/question. First, I would not sign any this offseason. I would want to see exactly what holes the Cards have going into 2027 and see if the Cards are close enough to contend. With respect to pitchers, they need to find guys in the 3-5 year range. Don't go beyond their age 34 season. With hitters, I wouldn't go beyond their age 35 or 36 season with a contract. Some on this board have advocated for Kyle Tucker who is likely to get 10 years through his age 39 season. The Cards can't get involved in that. While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now. If Doyle is who we hope and Liberatore and McGreevy are good back end guys, 2 more Sonny Gray's on 3 year deals and we have a real contender.

On the bat side, I am hoping a line-up of

Winn SS
Wetherholdt 3B
Herrera LF
Contreras 1B
Baez RF
Burleson DH
Donovan 2B
Bernal C
Scott/Church CF

is sufficient. If not, then adding 1 MOTOB again on a contract with reasonable term hopefully gets us there. Notice how I left out Nootbar, Gorman, Arenado and Walker. They are not going to make it...However, if they collectively can bring back 1 TOR SP via a prospect trade, it makes the cost reasonable.

[ICCFIM2]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

The Cards have to hit on at least 1 prospect don't we? The Cards have produced some solid major leaguers, Winn, Donovan and Burleson. But none that are huge stars. They really need Wetherholdt and Baez to be that and maybe Herrera.

[82birds]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

yea, that would be sweet

[BrockFloodMaris]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

Fair point/question. First, I would not sign any this offseason. I would want to see exactly what holes the Cards have going into 2027 and see if the Cards are close enough to contend. With respect to pitchers, they need to find guys in the 3-5 year range. Don't go beyond their age 34 season. With hitters, I wouldn't go beyond their age 35 or 36 season with a contract. Some on this board have advocated for Kyle Tucker who is likely to get 10 years through his age 39 season. The Cards can't get involved in that. While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now. If Doyle is who we hope and Liberatore and McGreevy are good back end guys, 2 more Sonny Gray's on 3 year deals and we have a real contender.

On the bat side, I am hoping a line-up of

Winn SS
Wetherholdt 3B
Herrera LF
Contreras 1B
Baez RF
Burleson DH
Donovan 2B
Bernal C
Scott/Church CF

is sufficient. If not, then adding 1 MOTOB again on a contract with reasonable term hopefully gets us there. Notice how I left out Nootbar, Gorman, Arenado and Walker. They are not going to make it...However, if they collectively can bring back 1 TOR SP via a prospect trade, it makes the cost reasonable.

Depending on the cost and years to sign Gray #2 and Gray #3, I can get behind that strategy for 2027 (after a work stoppage).

[imadangman]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

The Cards have to hit on at least 1 prospect don't we? The Cards have produced some solid major leaguers, Winn, Donovan and Burleson. But none that are huge stars. They really need Wetherholdt and Baez to be that and maybe Herrera.

Baez in my mind gives us a second chance at what we might not get to see Walker become.

3B Wetherholt
2B Donovan
LF/DH Herrera
1B Contreras
DH/LF Burleson
RF Baez
SS Winn
C Bernal
CF Scott/Church

Run that out there for 2026, it'll be fine for the purpose of that season. But know that Contreras isn't a longterm piece. Also know that the lineup would look very very deep if you can eventually find enough offense to have Herrera slide down to 5th.

Don't forget about Blaze Jordan, although he has sucked at Memphis so far. He seems like a good buffer to have on hand for Contreras.

[JDW]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

Aren’t you suggesting that the Cards do exactly what the Rangers did by signing TOR starters and MOTOBs? I am not ready, nor is BDW ready, to take those long term financial risks.

Fair point/question. First, I would not sign any this offseason. I would want to see exactly what holes the Cards have going into 2027 and see if the Cards are close enough to contend. With respect to pitchers, they need to find guys in the 3-5 year range. Don't go beyond their age 34 season. With hitters, I wouldn't go beyond their age 35 or 36 season with a contract. Some on this board have advocated for Kyle Tucker who is likely to get 10 years through his age 39 season. The Cards can't get involved in that. While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now. If Doyle is who we hope and Liberatore and McGreevy are good back end guys, 2 more Sonny Gray's on 3 year deals and we have a real contender.

On the bat side, I am hoping a line-up of

Winn SS
Wetherholdt 3B
Herrera LF
Contreras 1B
Baez RF
Burleson DH
Donovan 2B
Bernal C
Scott/Church CF

is sufficient. If not, then adding 1 MOTOB again on a contract with reasonable term hopefully gets us there. Notice how I left out Nootbar, Gorman, Arenado and Walker. They are not going to make it...However, if they collectively can bring back 1 TOR SP via a prospect trade, it makes the cost reasonable.

This is right with what I've been thinking and occasionally posting. Cards don't need a complete teardown/rebuild, as they are potentially a lot closer than many think.
I wouldn't give up on 2026 either, at the least either sign or trade for a competent SP this offseason.

[Catfish4U]

While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now.

The Cardinals have to be VERY disappointed in Sonny Gray thus far! Signed for 3 years and $75 million he has only produced 3.0 bWAR through most of the first two years. At 36 years old in November we should not expect a great year next year! jmho

[ICCFIM2]

It is the poster child for not signing older free agents and expecting spectacular results.

Semien age 34 OPS 670 signed through 2028
Seager age age 31 OPS 842 signed through 2031
Adolis Garcia age age 32 OPS 655 signed through 2026
Joc Pederson age 33 OPS 559 signed through 2026

Jake Burger who is arb eligible has fallen off and their young players are no better than the Cards players. Seager has more or less played to his contract. But, man that contract won't age well. Semien is playing like Arenado and they have 1 more year of that contract than the Cards have for Arenado. The Rangers are going to have to eat a lot of money or they will be worse next year.

As much as people complain about the Cards, this is the long awaited reset many clamored for. After next year, the Cards have no remaining contracts on their books except for Contreras and Arenado for 1 more year. Contreras has at least been serviceable at the plate and Arenado is a plus in the field. So the Cards should be in a position to contend again if they are willing to spend a bit on TOR pitching and another MOTOB. Baez is mashing in Springfield and is a stolen base machine. If and I strongly lean on the word if, he can translate into a ML player, the Cards may have what they need between Wetherholdt, Herrera and Baez to put together a formidable line-up again...

I really do hope Baez becomes another right-handed force in the lineup. That would be a big piece.

The Cards have to hit on at least 1 prospect don't we? The Cards have produced some solid major leaguers, Winn, Donovan and Burleson. But none that are huge stars. They really need Wetherholdt and Baez to be that and maybe Herrera.

Baez in my mind gives us a second chance at what we might not get to see Walker become.

3B Wetherholt
2B Donovan
LF/DH Herrera
1B Contreras
DH/LF Burleson
RF Baez
SS Winn
C Bernal
CF Scott/Church

Run that out there for 2026, it'll be fine for the purpose of that season. But know that Contreras isn't a longterm piece. Also know that the lineup would look very very deep if you can eventually find enough offense to have Herrera slide down to 5th.

Don't forget about Blaze Jordan, although he has sucked at Memphis so far. He seems like a good buffer to have on hand for Contreras.

I would not have Baez jump from AA to the Cards next year. Isn't that potentially the problem we had with Walker, he was promoted to soon. Just let Baez play in Memphis next year. If he is tearing it up, then promote him. Lets let the process play out. Like someone else pointed out, we don't have to give up on 2026. They could try to find a veteran pitcher on a 1 year deal to replace Pallante and potentially be very competitive next year. Similar, lets not have Bernal skip AAA next year either. Rushing guys is also partly what landed us in this mess. For 2027, I am hoping the line-up you listed abo e is what we are running out there. I think you are a year too soon with it though.

[2ninr]

They got what they deserved signing Pederson and Garcia. A blind man could see those guys were fools gold.

[AnExParrot]

While Sonny Gray has not been an ace for us, he has pitched fine and his contract is over next year. They need to probably get 2 of him. If you look at the Cards record in games he pitched v. say Fedde or Mikolas, replace one of those 2 with another Gray and the Cards are likely in a playoff spot now.

The Cardinals have to be VERY disappointed in Sonny Gray thus far! Signed for 3 years and $75 million he has only produced 3.0 bWAR through most of the first two years. At 36 years old in November we should not expect a great year next year! jmho

And he's produced 6.9 fWAR...

His k/9 and bb/9, are still very good. bb/9 of 1.5 this season is a career best and leads the league as does his k/bb ratio of 6.46. His h/9 this year is third highest of his career on the back of a .339 BABiP is likely a career high, but I'm not going through all the split pages at BB-R - his next closest was 2018 at .327. Last season his k/9 was second highest of his career and his bb/9 was career best(until he improved on it this season).

While W/L numbers aren't given nearly as much weight as they used to, his .615 win% as a Cardinal coupled with his peripherals above tells me the Cardinals aren't "VERY disappointed" with him.

[Jatalk]

Most aren't very happy with the state of Cardinals baseball presently, but I would think the Texas Rangers have to be more disappointed than us. Both teams started the day with 63-65 records and both teams are an identical 5 games out of the last wildcard spot. The difference is we entered the season as a re-set, or in a transition. The Rangers thought they might be World Series contenders. They have a $213M payroll, the #1 pitching staff in the majors by both ERA and WHIP. They have a position player roster of mashers who have failed to mash. Disappointing times in Arlington.

Thank you for the topic. Speaking for myself no they are not more disappointed than I am. Sure Texas fans are rightfully disappointed but they have positives the Cardinal fans do not.

Their ownership is willing to spend.

Management at least is aggressive is trying to build a team.

They at least tried to put an entertaining competitive team on the field.

They are not necessarily in a management flux like the Cardinals.

I believe their talent level is better top to bottom.