Do we realize

[Jatalk]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

[Cranny]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

[alw80]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Things are bad and younger Dewitt is a major concern. Allowing Mo to ride out this season with a halfass compete for the playoffs season is outrageous. They should have been buying or selling last offseason instead of sitting on the fence hoping all the good teams miraculously have bad seasons. Complete waste of a season.

[12xu]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

[imadangman]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

Rate of attrition. Is there a MLB team with a rotation that is 100% from their farm system. There has to be some outside veterans mixed in. Gray would be 36 next year. You can bring back Fedde, but he should be slotted as a #3.

[12xu]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

Rate of attrition. Is there a MLB team with a rotation that is 100% from their farm system. There has to be some outside veterans mixed in. Gray would be 36 next year. You can bring back Fedde, but he should be slotted as a #3.

Of course there are no MLB contenders with 100% rotation from their farm system, and injuries to pitchers are extremely common. My post was just stating the obvious, and nothing more.

[imadangman]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Seems like it's been a "transition year" since 2023. Seems like they wanted Walker and Gorman to take the baton that season. They've had unrealistic expectations of their own players for a long time, unable to develop them. They got through 2019-22 with paper thin pitching staffs. I remember reading articles in fall of 2022 that the organization expected McGreevy and Graceffo to play roles with the major league club in 2023. And let's face it, they were saved in 2021 by that 17 game streak and then in 2022 by Pujols slugging .700 for the second half. Mo's (donkey) kissers will call it detracting but those are things you cannot plan on happening. Those were the two seasons that we saw the fruits of the Goldschmidt-Arenado window. To the front office credit, those were great trades and any organization would have taken those two to build around. So by 2023 the wheels fells off early because the young players (Carlson, O Neill) did not develop and the pitching was not deep enough (too much reliance on Flaherty being a single ace, you need multiple). Now we are in a position where we hope Bloom is the magic bullet to take the pieces we have and realize their potential.

[imadangman]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

Rate of attrition. Is there a MLB team with a rotation that is 100% from their farm system. There has to be some outside veterans mixed in. Gray would be 36 next year. You can bring back Fedde, but he should be slotted as a #3.

Of course there are no MLB contenders with 100% rotation from their farm system, and injuries to pitchers are extremely common. My post was just stating the obvious, and nothing more.

It's exactly right I agree. Cranny is out of his mind.

[Cranny]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

Rate of attrition. Is there a MLB team with a rotation that is 100% from their farm system. There has to be some outside veterans mixed in. Gray would be 36 next year. You can bring back Fedde, but he should be slotted as a #3.

Of course there are no MLB contenders with 100% rotation from their farm system, and injuries to pitchers are extremely common. My post was just stating the obvious, and nothing more.

It's exactly right I agree. Cranny is out of his mind.

I don’t think so. They are in a mode right now that proved to be successful in the past. Stock from the system with good solid players and fill from the outside as needed. Sign older free agents to short term contracts and/or make several impact trades.

[rockondlouie]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Spot on jatalk

The farm system, which C. Bloom has been repairing since the start of the 2024 season, is finally up to speed w/other MLB teams.

Not sure any of those players who've been in Mo's farm system for more than three years can be salvaged but the younger prospects hopefully thrive like the Ray & Red Sox kids did under Bloom!

[imadangman]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

Yes there are some talented pitchers in the Cardinal farm system. Unfortunately most of them are injured....

Rate of attrition. Is there a MLB team with a rotation that is 100% from their farm system. There has to be some outside veterans mixed in. Gray would be 36 next year. You can bring back Fedde, but he should be slotted as a #3.

Of course there are no MLB contenders with 100% rotation from their farm system, and injuries to pitchers are extremely common. My post was just stating the obvious, and nothing more.

It's exactly right I agree. Cranny is out of his mind.

I don’t think so. They are in a mode right now that proved to be successful in the past. Stock from the system with good solid players and fill from the outside as needed. Sign older free agents to short term contracts and/or make several impact trades.

They haven't been able go do any of those things with proficiency in a long time.

[JDW]

So taking an optimistic view, the C position looks to have solid prospects with Crooks and others, with Herrera possibly becoming the main DH guy.
Wetherholt at either 3B or 2B with Donovan at the other looks promising. Winn at SS and not hard to imagine Contreras hitting much better at 1B. Then you've got Noot and VS2 looking decent in the OF. Chase Davis could emerge soon. Saggese has looked good in SSS. So on the position side, not so bad, and not taking in consideration Gorman or Walker, but to hope one of those at the least be a decent role player isn't far fetched.
SP's with Gray, Pallante, Libs, McGreevy and Mathews and possibly others, with plenty of cash to hopefully form a decent BP.
That'd give you Arenado, Fedde, Matz, Helsley and possibly some others as trade bait that should fetch some decent prospects.
Idk, but guess I don't see it as necessarily gloom and doom moving forward.

[imadangman]

So taking an optimistic view, the C position looks to have solid prospects with Crooks and others, with Herrera possibly becoming the main DH guy.
Wetherholt at either 3B or 2B with Donovan at the other looks promising. Winn at SS and not hard to imagine Contreras hitting much better at 1B. Then you've got Noot and VS2 looking decent in the OF. Chase Davis could emerge soon. Saggese has looked good in SSS. So on the position side, not so bad, and not taking in consideration Gorman or Walker, but to hope one of those at the least be a decent role player isn't far fetched.
SP's with Gray, Pallante, Libs, McGreevy and Mathews and possibly others, with plenty of cash to hopefully form a decent BP.
That'd give you Arenado, Fedde, Matz, Helsley and possibly some others as trade bait that should fetch some decent prospects.
Idk, but guess I don't see it as necessarily gloom and doom moving forward.

There is that bright side. I hope they do follow through on getting a return at the deadline.

[renostl]

So taking an optimistic view, the C position looks to have solid prospects with Crooks and others, with Herrera possibly becoming the main DH guy.
Wetherholt at either 3B or 2B with Donovan at the other looks promising. Winn at SS and not hard to imagine Contreras hitting much better at 1B. Then you've got Noot and VS2 looking decent in the OF. Chase Davis could emerge soon. Saggese has looked good in SSS. So on the position side, not so bad, and not taking in consideration Gorman or Walker, but to hope one of those at the least be a decent role player isn't far fetched.
SP's with Gray, Pallante, Libs, McGreevy and Mathews and possibly others, with plenty of cash to hopefully form a decent BP.
That'd give you Arenado, Fedde, Matz, Helsley and possibly some others as trade bait that should fetch some decent prospects.
Idk, but guess I don't see it as necessarily gloom and doom moving forward.

The team is in the situation due to MO betting on the wrong players. I won't add my opinion about MO just stating it as fact.
There is nobody from the prior prospects group that is a foundation to the team. The results are HOPE, that all the current
prospects can progress at the same time. Incredibly optimistic or foolish, but here we are.

I agree with your optimism. 100%. For all of MO's betting on the wrong horses, he has not crippled the future at all. Gray has the worst contract and even he can be tolerated if his production gets leapfrogged and he becomes a highly overpaid #3 or #4.

There are position players that can win here. The lineup needs an anchor but if the goal was to win now, they could approach
being 88 game winner IMO fairly easy. BP and give up on JW.
I'd be considering if POBO, Moving Herrera to 1B after WC, or the OF/DH and moving Walker if he meanders along a mediocre path.
Pages is ok there and too many C's on the way for Herrera to be locked into C and HOPE he becomes average or above there.
Waiting on the come has a price. Both Koperniak and Donovan can give you OF production now. Davis will also sometime
be added. IH as the RH option and DH. VS2 in CF, might be a top 5 guy in CF soon. Seriously optimistic on him along with top 5
is easily reachable for him in CF.

The team could reload so very quick. With all the money that has left and will leave can easily do it and
be right in the range of what both the AL and NL central divisions spend.

[cussnu2]

Just how bad things are for the Cardinals. Please consider the following:

Ownership that is aging and appears to be tightening their levels of spending. The son of the owner seems to be out of touch and a public relations disaster. Future is not bright from an owners standpoint.

Transition from Mo to Bloom. The change is good although it should happened two years ago. Mo has been a disaster. While the change to Bloom is exciting he has his pros and cons.

A current roster with many holes. There are no real stars on the team. Sure historically some may have been high performance athletes but current performance does not equal star performance.



A farm system that is far behind other clubs. While some solid players have come through the system, there have been a lot of busts. The player development is really questionable. Sure they are supposedly addressing this but a lot of work to do in this area.

You have to be concerned if a true fan.

Cardinals minor league pitching has been rated #3 in MLB.

I dont know how...Fangraphs has the pithcer rankings in just the central as follows....
MIL - 27,30,90,122,164
Pit - 33,48,144,316,397
Chc - 74,97,218,226,297
Cin - 133,166,287,320,332
STL - 104,311,317,396,475

According to fangraphs, St Louis is last in pitching propect rankings.

If you look at Fangraphs top 100 ALL prospects
Mil - 9
Pit - 4
Chc - 4
Stl - 1
Cin - 1

If you expand to top 200 its...
Mil - 13
Pit - 7
Cin - 7
Chc - 4
Stl - 3

If you go to top 300 MiLB Players Fangraphs has it as
Mil - 17
Cin - 9
Pit - 9
Chc - 9
St - 5

[JDW]

So taking an optimistic view, the C position looks to have solid prospects with Crooks and others, with Herrera possibly becoming the main DH guy.
Wetherholt at either 3B or 2B with Donovan at the other looks promising. Winn at SS and not hard to imagine Contreras hitting much better at 1B. Then you've got Noot and VS2 looking decent in the OF. Chase Davis could emerge soon. Saggese has looked good in SSS. So on the position side, not so bad, and not taking in consideration Gorman or Walker, but to hope one of those at the least be a decent role player isn't far fetched.
SP's with Gray, Pallante, Libs, McGreevy and Mathews and possibly others, with plenty of cash to hopefully form a decent BP.
That'd give you Arenado, Fedde, Matz, Helsley and possibly some others as trade bait that should fetch some decent prospects.
Idk, but guess I don't see it as necessarily gloom and doom moving forward.

The team is in the situation due to MO betting on the wrong players. I won't add my opinion about MO just stating it as fact.
There is nobody from the prior prospects group that is a foundation to the team. The results are HOPE, that all the current
prospects can progress at the same time. Incredibly optimistic or foolish, but here we are.

I agree with your optimism. 100%. For all of MO's betting on the wrong horses, he has not crippled the future at all. Gray has the worst contract and even he can be tolerated if his production gets leapfrogged and he becomes a highly overpaid #3 or #4.

There are position players that can win here. The lineup needs an anchor but if the goal was to win now, they could approach
being 88 game winner IMO fairly easy. BP and give up on JW.
I'd be considering if POBO, Moving Herrera to 1B after WC, or the OF/DH and moving Walker if he meanders along a mediocre path.
Pages is ok there and too many C's on the way for Herrera to be locked into C and HOPE he becomes average or above there.
Waiting on the come has a price. Both Koperniak and Donovan can give you OF production now. Davis will also sometime
be added. IH as the RH option and DH. VS2 in CF, might be a top 5 guy in CF soon. Seriously optimistic on him along with top 5
is easily reachable for him in CF.

The team could reload so very quick. With all the money that has left and will leave can easily do it and
be right in the range of what both the AL and NL central divisions spend.

Good analysis.

VS2 CF
Noot RF
Herrera LF
Wetherholt 3B
Contreras 1B
Donovan 2B
Gorman DH
Crooks/Pages or Pozo C
Winn SS

Koperniak, Davis, Saggese, Bernal, etc.

Agree on possibly adding Walker to the trade candidates. He still has decent value with his cost control, his youth, his great work ethic and still very possible untapped potential.
At this point the large sum of available money after the targeted trades for prospects should be focused on pitching. I'm pretty pleased with the Cards current position player outlook.
I think the team could contend next year, and haven't totally given up on this year. Wouldn't be impossible the current 10-15 record so far could have been flip flopped with better luck/managing/randomness.