so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade

[ecleme22]

Countless times Old Friend has posted how the Cards have messed up not giving Libs a consistent chance to develop as a SP. Basically almost every time such a thread came up that I saw, OF was there to voice his opinion that Libs should be given a runway to develop as a SP, not exact words, but a similar and consistent opinion over the last few years.
I hated to see Arozarena traded away, and that Shildt wouldn't give him any runway over a fading Fowler. Too bad another player couldn't have been subbed into the trade instead of Aroz, who provided a lot of value for the Rays while he was cost controlled.
Anyway, to the OP's question, yes, if Libs can keep this up, reassessment of this trade will and already is taking place.
The final assessment ........................ IDK, ................................. when all the players involved careers are over I guess, lol.
Currently fluid.

I don't know why ecleme decides to be such a bonehead. Everyone here who has posted for any length of time knows how frequently I've talked about this and how my bullishness on Liberatore if given a proper starter's routine has been as consistent as one could be.

So ecleme is going to start some nonsense that I was "silent". He starts stupid arguments like these but this one is next level. Why is he taking shots at me when there have been plenty more posters who swore up and down that any thought of Liberatore as a starter was a stupid one, and that he was destined to be in the bullpen?

Overall, you have been bullish on Libby.

Yep, and you've trashed that opinion, consistently, for years.

But in the 2023 offseason, you were silent when the Cards signed three pitchers. And I'm not talking the day after the signings. I'm talking throughout the entire offseason, during numerous long threads questioning the Lynn/Gibson/Gray signings, you stayed silent.

I don't participate in threads I'm not all that interested in. I have been very vocal that I thought Liberatore should be in the rotation taking starts on a regular turn, and disagreed vehemently and consistently that the Cardinals put obstacles in the way of that approach.

How you could possibly say that I've been "silent" is beyond comprehension. It's simply untrue and I have no idea why you'd make such an absurd claim.

Kind of similar to your semi-bullishness of Siani over Scott. And then as the 2025 spring training progressed, you retreated into the shadows.

Yeah, you already tried that nonsense and you got trashed by everyone in the thread. You really want to revisit that?

Oh wait, we can't, because the mods wiped your stupid thread off the forum.

I'm glad you're back to being bullish on Libby. Happy for you.

I've never wavered. Why are you trolling?

Don't be so sensitive. Disagreeing isn't 'trashing.'

And yes, you do make it well known when the org/Oli/etc has hurt Libby's growth. Yet you were silent the entire offseason when Mo signed three pitchers, essentially bumping Libby from the rotation before Thanksgiving. I'm not saying you weren't on CT. But you didn't say [shirt] about Libby getting bumped from the rotation. And by the end of ST, Thompson named 6th starter!!! You were still silent.

You know you were.

Also, thanks for reporting the Siani thread. You are so sensitive. LOL

[jbrach]

randy A has been a solid player but when the cards made the trade they thought they had a stocked OF and they needed young left handed pitching...as of today a still young 25 yr old lefty with great stuff pitchng great as a starter is far more valuable than randy A...I for one cross my fingers that Libby becomes a real TOTR starter for the next several years

[ecleme22]

randy A has been a solid player but when the cards made the trade they thought they had a stocked OF and they needed young left handed pitching...as of today a still young 25 yr old lefty with great stuff pitchng great as a starter is far more valuable than randy A...I for one cross my fingers that Libby becomes a real TOTR starter for the next several years

After 2019:

Ozuna walked

Bader and ONeill had disappointing seasons.

Fowler was okay.

So how was it ‘stocked?’

[Basil Shabazz]

Stubborn, opinionated, inflexible, arrogant, infallible, truculent, know-it-all, pedantic, arrogant, dogmatic, opinionated.

One hallmark of narcissistic behavior is an incessant need to argue and prove one's correctness. These individuals are quick to challenge even the smallest details, diverting discussions into a contest of who is right and who is wrong.

[ecleme22]

Stubborn, opinionated, inflexible, arrogant, infallible, truculent, know-it-all, pedantic, arrogant, dogmatic, opinionated.

One hallmark of narcissistic behavior is an incessant need to argue and prove one's correctness. These individuals are quick to challenge even the smallest details, diverting discussions into a contest of who is right and who is wrong.

What a baby.

Can’t even make a maturity reply to my reply to you.

[An Old Friend]

Don't be so sensitive.

Don't be a dishonest doooosh and make up things that are untrue.

Disagreeing isn't 'trashing.'

What do you call mocking? Mocking is different than respectfully disagreeing and honoring one's opinion.

You've consistently mocked my position. You know that to be true. You're having trouble with honesty today, though.

And yes, you do make it well known when the org/Oli/etc has hurt Libby's growth. Yet you were silent the entire offseason when Mo signed three pitchers, essentially bumping Libby from the rotation before Thanksgiving. I'm not saying you weren't on CT. But you didn't say [shirt] about Libby getting bumped from the rotation. And by the end of ST, Thompson named 6th starter!!! You were still silent.

You know you were.

You can tell all the stories that you want, but it doesn't make them true.

Also, thanks for reporting the Siani thread. You are so sensitive. LOL

I didn't report anything. I understand why people would have, though.

I went to come back to the thread and saw that it was removed.

[ecleme22]

Don't be so sensitive.

Don't be a dishonest doooosh and make up things that are untrue.

Disagreeing isn't 'trashing.'

What do you call mocking? Mocking is different than respectfully disagreeing and honoring one's opinion.

You've consistently mocked my position. You know that to be true. You're having trouble with honesty today, though.

And yes, you do make it well known when the org/Oli/etc has hurt Libby's growth. Yet you were silent the entire offseason when Mo signed three pitchers, essentially bumping Libby from the rotation before Thanksgiving. I'm not saying you weren't on CT. But you didn't say [shirt] about Libby getting bumped from the rotation. And by the end of ST, Thompson named 6th starter!!! You were still silent.

You know you were.

You can tell all the stories that you want, but it doesn't make them true.

Also, thanks for reporting the Siani thread. You are so sensitive. LOL

I didn't report anything. I understand why people would have, though.

I went to come back to the thread and saw that it was removed.

Oh god, so sensitive.

You mocked me a few weeks ago in a Libby thread. Said something like “ecleme said the Libby trade was lost 5 minutes after it happened!”

You don’t see me crying like you are.

[Basil Shabazz]

AOF you should just move on and save your energy for real discussion. You can't debate or converse with a narcissist.

You were right about Libby all a long. You don't need one narcissistic poster to validate you.

[An Old Friend]

Stubborn, opinionated, inflexible, arrogant, infallible, truculent, know-it-all, pedantic, arrogant, dogmatic, opinionated.

One hallmark of narcissistic behavior is an incessant need to argue and prove one's correctness. These individuals are quick to challenge even the smallest details, diverting discussions into a contest of who is right and who is wrong.

And made even more annoying when they're wrong

[ecleme22]

I think MIDMO ended this whole thread with one question....

Would you trade Libby for Arozarena straight up today?

See my post from page 1:

Question:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Not surprised Basil has nothing to refute this.

[Basil Shabazz]

One hallmark of narcissistic behavior is an incessant need to argue and prove one's correctness. These individuals are quick to challenge even the smallest details, diverting discussions into a contest of who is right and who is wrong.

[An Old Friend]

AOF you should just move on and save your energy for real discussion. You can't debate or converse with a narcissist.

You were right about Libby all a long. You don't need one narcissistic poster to validate you.

Yeah, I know better. I do.

It is kind of funny that he mistakes someone not engaging with his act as someone lacking conviction or being "silent". Oh well.

Appreciate the suggestion!

[ecleme22]

One hallmark of narcissistic behavior is an incessant need to argue and prove one's correctness. These individuals are quick to challenge even the smallest details, diverting discussions into a contest of who is right and who is wrong.

Lol. Keep screaming in your pillow.

My reply to you was measured and had a point, and was in no way argumentative.

Stay classy, lol

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I think there might be room for a 131 ops+, but that’s just me.

That's cool. I like him too, but that wasn't the initial comment. It was that they'd rather have him over others.

Randy has .8 fWAR right now. Winn, Nootbaar, Arenado, Donovan, and Scott all have more. Contreras is behind him with .4, but he's also basically the heart of this team, so I'm taking him over Randy. And Gorman and Walker I'm taking over him based on potential. Probably a mistake with Gorman at this point, but that's what I'm sticking with.

The OF right now is Noot, Scott, and Walker. I wouldn't start him over any of them and I wouldn't platoon him with any of them. That leaves DH, but you have Gorman, Burleson, and, most importantly, Herrera when he comes back. So, no place for him there. I mean, he'd be a hell of a 4th OFer, and I'd like to have the guy on the team, but that wasn't the original comment.

[ecleme22]

AOF you should just move on and save your energy for real discussion. You can't debate or converse with a narcissist.

You were right about Libby all a long. You don't need one narcissistic poster to validate you.

Yeah, I know better. I do.

It is kind of funny that he mistakes someone not engaging with his act as someone lacking conviction or being "silent". Oh well.

Appreciate the suggestion!

Now he admits to being silent.

You see, banner 29? ^^^

[An Old Friend]

Question:

If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?

We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.

But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?

Not surprised Basil has nothing to refute this.

I love that ecleme is demanding that people engage with him and refute his opinion on a fictitious trade that he made up for no reason other than to argue.