STLtoday.com

WLTFE wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 15:10 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:34 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:26 am

I’m aware. I stated what I would do. Until we spend or trade for top level talent, we remain a flightless bird.

Could be. Unless several top prospects develop well and they augment with older vets on short term contracts like they did with Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.

You are correct. If several top prospects. Can’t you see the danger in your statement. Several means 3 or more. Who and where are three top flight prospects?

Older vets. We have no Beltran or Berkman. That’s one of our problems. No senior leadership.

Here’s our deal. This isn’t our Cardinal teams of past. We are no longer upper tier. So when you get mediocre, it takes more of what you and I are discussing.

We are in a texas size mud hole right now.

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Well said....apparently some DeTwit supporters believe 'hoping' will work everything out...that's not a plan...and the fans are responding!

There may be 10-15K a game next season if they don’t dramatically improve……to allow the product to sink this far and yet hoping to keep their prime investment at high valuations doesn’t compute.

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:34 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:26 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:19 am

Cards won’t compete in open market competition for top FAs. Ergo, no Tucker.

I’m aware. I stated what I would do. Until we spend or trade for top level talent, we remain a flightless bird.

Could be. Unless several top prospects develop well and they augment with older vets on short term contracts like they did with Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.

You are correct. If several top prospects. Can’t you see the danger in your statement. Several means 3 or more. Who and where are three top flight prospects?

Older vets. We have no Beltran or Berkman. That’s one of our problems. No senior leadership.

Here’s our deal. This isn’t our Cardinal teams of past. We are no longer upper tier. So when you get mediocre, it takes more of what you and I are discussing.

We are in a texas size mud hole right now.

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:34 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:26 am

I’m aware. I stated what I would do. Until we spend or trade for top level talent, we remain a flightless bird.

Could be. Unless several top prospects develop well and they augment with older vets on short term contracts like they did with Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.

You are correct. If several top prospects. Can’t you see the danger in your statement. Several means 3 or more. Who and where are three top flight prospects?

Older vets. We have no Beltran or Berkman. That’s one of our problems. No senior leadership.

Here’s our deal. This isn’t our Cardinal teams of past. We are no longer upper tier. So when you get mediocre, it takes more of what you and I are discussing.

We are in a texas size mud hole right now.

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:34 am

Could be. Unless several top prospects develop well and they augment with older vets on short term contracts like they did with Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.

You are correct. If several top prospects. Can’t you see the danger in your statement. Several means 3 or more. Who and where are three top flight prospects?

Older vets. We have no Beltran or Berkman. That’s one of our problems. No senior leadership.

Here’s our deal. This isn’t our Cardinal teams of past. We are no longer upper tier. So when you get mediocre, it takes more of what you and I are discussing.

We are in a texas size mud hole right now.

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Who could forget the MO wasteland of FA horror shows???
Are you seriously blaming FREE AGENCY for the Cardinals not playing in that market again?? The POBO who wasted MILLIONS of BDW dollars is the sole entity responsible for the Cardinals FA failures. To be clear those were not HIGH PRICED TOP FA’s. Those were over spending on low grade or washed up talent because BDW/MO refused to play in the elite FA market. Somehow Mo thought wasting money on the second of third tier FA was acceptable but saving the budget for actual top talent was forbidden

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:17 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 06:42 am

You are correct. If several top prospects. Can’t you see the danger in your statement. Several means 3 or more. Who and where are three top flight prospects?

Older vets. We have no Beltran or Berkman. That’s one of our problems. No senior leadership.

Here’s our deal. This isn’t our Cardinal teams of past. We are no longer upper tier. So when you get mediocre, it takes more of what you and I are discussing.

We are in a texas size mud hole right now.

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Who could forget the MO wasteland of FA horror shows???
Are you seriously blaming FREE AGENCY for the Cardinals not playing in that market again?? The POBO who wasted MILLIONS of BDW dollars is the sole entity responsible for the Cardinals FA failures. To be clear those were not HIGH PRICED TOP FA’s. Those were over spending on low grade or washed up talent because BDW/MO refused to play in the elite FA market. Somehow Mo thought wasting money on the second of third tier FA was acceptable but saving the budget for actual top talent was forbidden

If you’re waiting for huge, long term FA contracts for the very top FAs, GF, you’re going to be perpetually disappointed and frustrated. Embrace realism.

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 06:38 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:17 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:04 am

Let’s look for older guys like Beltran, Berkman, Lester, etc.
Free agent older guys who still have some gas left in the tank, and can provide leadership. Then have Walker, Gorman, Crooks, Jordan, and Baez work with Jim Edmonds over the off season.

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Who could forget the MO wasteland of FA horror shows???
Are you seriously blaming FREE AGENCY for the Cardinals not playing in that market again?? The POBO who wasted MILLIONS of BDW dollars is the sole entity responsible for the Cardinals FA failures. To be clear those were not HIGH PRICED TOP FA’s. Those were over spending on low grade or washed up talent because BDW/MO refused to play in the elite FA market. Somehow Mo thought wasting money on the second of third tier FA was acceptable but saving the budget for actual top talent was forbidden

If you’re waiting for huge, long term FA contracts for the very top FAs, GF, you’re going to be perpetually disappointed and frustrated. Embrace realism.

When you’re in a hole this size, FA may be an only way out. The farm cant develop enough talent in fast enough time to help the climb out.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 06:43 am

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 06:38 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:17 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:09 am

Those are neat ideas, but let’s examine. Again I ask, who are these older vets? I don’t see any, not to the kevel you desire. That’s one of my points- they no longer exist. This part of the game has changed.

Working with Edmonds. Who would truly allow or do that, and then out of the six you named, only two ish May develop. That’s still leaves us short reference several.

We still need to spend or trade big. I say again these are not normal times. We are in a rut sir.

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Who could forget the MO wasteland of FA horror shows???
Are you seriously blaming FREE AGENCY for the Cardinals not playing in that market again?? The POBO who wasted MILLIONS of BDW dollars is the sole entity responsible for the Cardinals FA failures. To be clear those were not HIGH PRICED TOP FA’s. Those were over spending on low grade or washed up talent because BDW/MO refused to play in the elite FA market. Somehow Mo thought wasting money on the second of third tier FA was acceptable but saving the budget for actual top talent was forbidden

If you’re waiting for huge, long term FA contracts for the very top FAs, GF, you’re going to be perpetually disappointed and frustrated. Embrace realism.

When you’re in a hole this size, FA may be an only way out. The farm cant develop enough talent in fast enough time to help the climb out.

All for signing several free agents. Just not for huge, long term contracts that may backfire. Too many others have backfired for other teams. Middle market teams can’t afford that.

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 07:06 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 06:43 am

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 06:38 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 21:17 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:31 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 09:04 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:48 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:42 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 07:33 am

How about Starling Marte, Dawg?

He’s 36. In his 14 th year. A classic aging vet.

On a deep team, his experience and fourth outfielder role would be fine; on a mediocre team, he would bring zero effects. Not enough around him to support his age.

Right now we have -

LF - Burleson
CF - Scott
RF - Walker

A veteran like Marte might be the ideal guy to put into the OF mix.

Cranny acknowledged that past great Cards teams were full of vets from trades/FA and also acknowledged that path is required in the future, but then states Cards won’t compete in open market. Think about the timeline for internal promotions to field a starting lineup…..it’s illogical. By the time a prospect might really be ready any of your talent on controlled status will be FA…..
If the Cards will ever compete again it’ll be at the time when their internal youth breaks out and the Billionaire miser signs/trades for at least 2-3 top players.

Getting Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, and Gray proves that BDW is not a “miser”. But he won’t tie up a large % of payroll in one player. Who may go down with injury for an extended time.

You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

Who could forget the MO wasteland of FA horror shows???
Are you seriously blaming FREE AGENCY for the Cardinals not playing in that market again?? The POBO who wasted MILLIONS of BDW dollars is the sole entity responsible for the Cardinals FA failures. To be clear those were not HIGH PRICED TOP FA’s. Those were over spending on low grade or washed up talent because BDW/MO refused to play in the elite FA market. Somehow Mo thought wasting money on the second of third tier FA was acceptable but saving the budget for actual top talent was forbidden

If you’re waiting for huge, long term FA contracts for the very top FAs, GF, you’re going to be perpetually disappointed and frustrated. Embrace realism.

When you’re in a hole this size, FA may be an only way out. The farm cant develop enough talent in fast enough time to help the climb out.

All for signing several free agents. Just not for huge, long term contracts that may backfire. Too many others have backfired for other teams. Middle market teams can’t afford that.

Fine reply. I’m thinking the market won’t allow for sub year contracts, like 3-5 years. They want the 8-10 year contract.

And to your point; my point, at some point, that FA will get hurt. You are correct. It’s a gamble.

As is a high profile trade.

OK..

Have to agree with an earlier poster. Go out and find the best hitting coach out there.(Matt Holliday) send Gorman and Walker to AAA and let them work for a full year. Neither one of them have trade value right now, so it might be our only option. We cannot have both Walker and Scott’s bats in the lineup next year, as is.

I’m for giving a shot with Saggesse and Fermin fighting in spring training for a job at the 4
Winn at 6
Contreras, assuming he won’t waive at 3
JJ at the 5

Donny at the 7
Burleson at the 9
Church and Scott fighting for the 8(need that strong D to,help with average corners.
Ivan at the 2

Get a DH via free agency that may get you 20 dingers.

Trade Noot, NA, Pages, and Pozo(assuming we like JC’s defense.) for whatever pitching we can get. We NEED at least two starters. I truly believe if we can get an above average starting pitching rotation, we can compete. Maybe I’m in a dream world..🫨🫨

Here is the free agent pitching list for this off season.

Dylan Cease, Zac Gallen, Framber Valdez, Chris Sale (club option), Michael King (mutual option), Jack Flaherty (opt-out), Justin Verlander, Jordan Montgomery, Shane Bieber (player option), Shota Imanaga (club option/player option), Max Scherzer, Clayton Kershaw, Brandon Woodruff (mutual option), Zach Eflin, Kodai Senga (opt-out), Ranger Suárez, Chris Bassitt, Walker Buehler (mutual option), Nestor Cortes, Jon Gray, Merrill Kelly, Frankie Montas (opt-out), Dustin May, Tyler Mahle, Freddy Peralta (club option), Nick Martinez, Marcus Stroman (vesting option), Lucas Giolito (club option), Aaron Civale, Kenta Maeda, Charlie Morton, Michael Lorenzen (mutual option), Germán Márquez, José Urquidy (club option), Tyler Anderson, Andrew Heaney, Kyle Hendricks, Steven Matz, Miles Mikolas, Chris Paddack, Erick Fedde, Alex Cobb, Tomoyuki Sugano, Jose Quintana (mutual option), Griffin Canning, Michael Soroka, Martín Pérez (mutual option), Colin Rea (club option), Cal Quantrill, Kyle Hart (club option), John Means (club option), Patrick Corbin, Kyle Gibson

There is a lot there to like. I know we won’t break the bank, but there has to be one or two 20 million dollar pitchers in there. Expensive? Maybe, maybe not. If we get rid of maybe half of NA salary, we lose Mile’s salary, Matz, Fedde, Helsley(I believe that gets us 55 million, assuming only half of NA’s). I like the idea of bringing Maton back.. What is Helsley looking for to right his ship?

So:

Donnie 4
Ivan 2
Burleson 9
FA acquisition DH
Contreras 3
JJ 5
Winn 6
Saggesse/Fermin 4
Scott/Church 8

1-2-3

Gray, Free agent, Free Agent

McGreevy
Libby

Swing starters or young ones

Leahy
Mathews
Henderson
Wilkerson and Taylor..both journeymen that had pretty good stats at AAA

BP

JJ
King
O’Brien
Svanson
Pallante
Fernandez
Granillo
Greceffo
Maton
Helsley

Whatever else left over from the pitchers who don’t start.

Manager: Molina

Gives your best two potential stars, the chance to re-invent themselves for a year at Memphis, allowing you to supplement your lineup in 2027 and make it really strong, or if they blossom, could be huge trade chips.

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm
You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

As you said to another poster about embracing "realism", perhaps you should do the same.

Those particular FA acquisitions, by and large, say more about the (lack of) thinking processes of the POBO, whose fan club you chair, than they do the free agent process writ large.

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 13:58 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm
You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

As you said to another poster about embracing "realism", perhaps you should do the same.

Those particular FA acquisitions, by and large, say more about the (lack of) thinking processes of the POBO, whose fan club you chair, than they do the free agent process writ large.

The FA process, as it’s structured right now, doesn’t fit well with middle market teams. Sorry to say.

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

And maybe you didn't notice those horrible moves were all MO SUGGESTIONS and he's gone in four games!

Plus those aren't "high priced free agents" either, low end to middle of the road deals.

Big deal a potential work stoppage.

NEWS FLASH cranny.......BDWJR will NOT BE PAYING any players during a work stoppage so using that as an excuse not to sign a free agent is LAME.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

And maybe you didn't notice those horrible moves were all MO SUGGESTIONS and he's gone in four games!

Plus those aren't "high priced free agents" either, low end to middle of the road deals.

Big deal a potential work stoppage.

NEWS FLASH cranny.......BDWJR will NOT BE PAYING any players during a work stoppage so using that as an excuse not to sign a free agent is LAME.

And what you don’t understand, rock, is that a lot of things may change with a newly negotiated agreement. And many teams are going to wait to see what those changes are. Like number of minimum wage years, number of arbitration years, etc. Things that may change cost projections.

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:44 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

And maybe you didn't notice those horrible moves were all MO SUGGESTIONS and he's gone in four games!

Plus those aren't "high priced free agents" either, low end to middle of the road deals.

Big deal a potential work stoppage.

NEWS FLASH cranny.......BDWJR will NOT BE PAYING any players during a work stoppage so using that as an excuse not to sign a free agent is LAME.

And what you don’t understand, rock, is that a lot of things may change with a newly negotiated agreement. And many teams are going to wait to see what those changes are. Like number of minimum wage years, number of arbitration years, etc. Things that may change cost projections.

If this org can’t find some people who know what a legit MLB player looks like……the particulars of the new CBA will not matter.
We just wasted an entire season so someone over there could watch the YUTES……some more…..to figure out if they can play in this league.
the answers we all saw this 2025 Season of Yutes were very obvious BEFORE this season started……as I wrote BEFORE the season.
If I can see these things sitting watching games on TV what kind of inferior clowns did BDW have working for him??? Has that improved???

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 13:58 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm

Imperial Capitalist wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 16:59 pm

Goldfan wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 14:57 pm
You’ve stated several times that going forward BDW isn’t going to pay FA $$$ and the team will almost exclusively need to develop from within. So which is it? Signing a 35+yr old end of career starter isn’t going to move the needle. You pen Berkman often. That team had Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Carpenter……so again your strategy doesn’t hold water. If this team were to attempt to compete next season they would require 2 top hitters and 2 top SP…..there will never be a season where at LEAST that percentage of starters wont’t need to come from Prime Vet talent.

Another thing to consider:

Lance Berkman did indeed have an excellent season for STL in 2011 @ age 35.

However, he had a horrible 2012/age 36 season for STL, due to knee surgery, and was out from late May until early September.

His 2013 season (his last) was even statistically worse than his 2012.

In addition, his 2010 season (Hou and NYY) was a 1.4 WAR effort (14 HR, 58 RBI, .248).

We were quite fortunate to have him as a key member of the 2011 squad and he performed admirably, but it'd be wise to recall that we were the beneficiaries of the best (by far) of his final 4 seasons in the majors. Put differently, simply saying that "older vets" is what we need fails to take into account the potential health issues and (esp in today's 95 MPH+ FB world) their ability to substantively contribute.

Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

As you said to another poster about embracing "realism", perhaps you should do the same.

Those particular FA acquisitions, by and large, say more about the (lack of) thinking processes of the POBO, whose fan club you chair, than they do the free agent process writ large.

The FA process, as it’s structured right now, doesn’t fit well with middle market teams. Sorry to say.

For a certain middle market team that will have very little long-term salary committed on its future books after 2025 is over, I beg to differ. They may or may not be in "buy" mode at present, but their future contractual obligations won't serve as a valid excuse to bypass the free agent market...when the time is right.

Not that you care one way or the other. As you've peddled here many times, you've witnessed 10 Cardinal WS appearances with 5 wins, and really couldn't care less if you see more of it in the future, telling us quite often: "I just watch baseball for the pure enjoyment of it".

Goldfan wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:50 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:44 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑24 Sep 2025 14:13 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Sep 2025 20:08 pm Maybe some of you didn’t notice the Fowler, Leake, Cecil, Miller, etc. failures. The Cardinals in no way are going to spend huge dollars (long term contracts) on high priced top free agents. Especially with a possible work stoppage looming.

And maybe you didn't notice those horrible moves were all MO SUGGESTIONS and he's gone in four games!

Plus those aren't "high priced free agents" either, low end to middle of the road deals.

Big deal a potential work stoppage.

NEWS FLASH cranny.......BDWJR will NOT BE PAYING any players during a work stoppage so using that as an excuse not to sign a free agent is LAME.

And what you don’t understand, rock, is that a lot of things may change with a newly negotiated agreement. And many teams are going to wait to see what those changes are. Like number of minimum wage years, number of arbitration years, etc. Things that may change cost projections.

If this org can’t find some people who know what a legit MLB player looks like……the particulars of the new CBA will not matter.
We just wasted an entire season so someone over there could watch the YUTES……some more…..to figure out if they can play in this league.
the answers we all saw this 2025 Season of Yutes were very obvious BEFORE this season started……as I wrote BEFORE the season.
If I can see these things sitting watching games on TV what kind of inferior clowns did BDW have working for him??? Has that improved???

You didn’t enjoy watching Winn?
You didn’t enjoy watching Burleson?
You didn’t enjoy watching Herrra?
You didn’t enjoy watching Liberatore?
You didn’t enjoy watching McGreevy?