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Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 12:16 pm
by Ronnie Dobbs
I think it's fair to say that, even though Randy got a bit of a raw deal, the trade was made at a time where the OF was looking like a positive for the Cardinals, while we desperately needed young pitching. I also think it's fair to say that Liberatore was a bit slower to develop than we would have liked, but he also got a raw deal for a few years.
Thankfully, he finally got a chance to really take the ball and run with it and he has. And he has a real chance to make this trade a win. I'm very much rooting for that to be the case, because we really need him right now.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 12:18 pm
by Clubmaker2
Besides his great 2020 post season, in the six years 2020 to 2025, RA has outhit all cardinals outfielders in 3 of the seasons. For the others, In one season only utility Brendan D outhit him, in another TO's hot year outhit him, then in his RAs weak 2024 season both lars and Burly.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 12:27 pm
by ecleme22
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑07 May 2025 12:16 pm
I think it's fair to say that, even though Randy got a bit of a raw deal, the trade was made at a time where the OF was looking like a positive for the Cardinals, while we desperately needed young pitching. I also think it's fair to say that Liberatore was a bit slower to develop than we would have liked, but he also got a raw deal for a few years.
Thankfully, he finally got a chance to really take the ball and run with it and he has. And he has a real chance to make this trade a win. I'm very much rooting for that to be the case, because we really need him right now.
ONeill and Bader were coming off disappointing 2019 campaigns. Ozuna was 'walking. Fowler had a pretty good 2019 but nothing eye popping.
So...where was the strength?
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 13:24 pm
by Ronnie Dobbs
cardinalsfever44 wrote: ↑06 May 2025 20:01 pm
I'll take Noot and Scott over Aroz.
Aroz is fine, but he's not a star.
Donovan, Winn, and Walker as well. Probably Gorman too, but I'm starting to look pretty wrong on that. Contreras and Arenado too, but not sure if they count.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:01 pm
by ecleme22
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑07 May 2025 13:24 pm
cardinalsfever44 wrote: ↑06 May 2025 20:01 pm
I'll take Noot and Scott over Aroz.
Aroz is fine, but he's not a star.
Donovan, Winn, and Walker as well. Probably Gorman too, but I'm starting to look pretty wrong on that. Contreras and Arenado too, but not sure if they count.
I think there might be room for a 131 ops+, but that’s just me.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:08 pm
by Catfish4U
Randy Aroz is doing VERY well this year! He has a 131 ops+ and 8 stolen bases!
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:19 pm
by An Old Friend
JDW wrote: ↑07 May 2025 11:57 am
Countless times Old Friend has posted how the Cards have messed up not giving Libs a consistent chance to develop as a SP. Basically almost every time such a thread came up that I saw, OF was there to voice his opinion that Libs should be given a runway to develop as a SP, not exact words, but a similar and consistent opinion over the last few years.
I hated to see Arozarena traded away, and that Shildt wouldn't give him any runway over a fading Fowler. Too bad another player couldn't have been subbed into the trade instead of Aroz, who provided a lot of value for the Rays while he was cost controlled.
Anyway, to the OP's question, yes, if Libs can keep this up, reassessment of this trade will and already is taking place.
The final assessment ........................ IDK, ................................. when all the players involved careers are over I guess, lol.
Currently fluid.
I don't know why ecleme decides to be such a bonehead. Everyone here who has posted for any length of time knows how frequently I've talked about this and how my bullishness on Liberatore if given a proper starter's routine has been as consistent as one could be.
So ecleme is going to start some nonsense that I was "silent". He starts stupid arguments like these but this one is next level. Why is he taking shots at me when there have been plenty more posters who swore up and down that any thought of Liberatore as a starter was a stupid one, and that he was destined to be in the bullpen?
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:23 pm
by MIDMOBIRDTWO
Catfish4U wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:08 pm
Randy Aroz is doing VERY well this year! He has a 131 ops+ and 8 stolen bases!
Soi would you trade Libby for this version of Aroz? Not me.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:36 pm
by Basil Shabazz
MIDMOBIRDTWO wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:23 pm
Catfish4U wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:08 pm
Randy Aroz is doing VERY well this year! He has a 131 ops+ and 8 stolen bases!
Soi would you trade Libby for this version of Aroz? Not me.
Not a chance
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:48 pm
by thetank2
Catfish4U wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:08 pm
Randy Aroz is doing VERY well this year! He has a 131 ops+ and 8 stolen bases!
On pace for lots of runs batted in and score? Not. That. 218 average is enduring.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 14:56 pm
by Basil Shabazz
I think MIDMO ended this whole thread with one question....
Would you trade Libby for Arozarena straight up today?
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 15:01 pm
by ecleme22
Basil Shabazz wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:56 pm
I think MIDMO ended this whole thread with one question....
Would you trade Libby for Arozarena straight up today?
See my post from page 1:
Question:
If after the 2015 season, the Cubs traded Hendricks for a 17 year old Tatis Jr. and the Cubs didn't win a WS, who would you declare the winner of the trade?
We all know if we were Cubs fans today, we would be very happy Tatis and his 161 OPS+ is a Cub over a 35 year old Hendricks.
But, knowing what we know now, who would've won this trade?
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 15:03 pm
by ecleme22
thetank2 wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:48 pm
Catfish4U wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:08 pm
Randy Aroz is doing VERY well this year! He has a 131 ops+ and 8 stolen bases!
On pace for lots of runs batted in and score? Not. That. 218 average is enduring.
131 OPS+ and a .771 OPS.
He's having a good year so far. And on pace for his 5th straight 20/20 season.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 15:08 pm
by ecleme22
An Old Friend wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:19 pm
JDW wrote: ↑07 May 2025 11:57 am
Countless times Old Friend has posted how the Cards have messed up not giving Libs a consistent chance to develop as a SP. Basically almost every time such a thread came up that I saw, OF was there to voice his opinion that Libs should be given a runway to develop as a SP, not exact words, but a similar and consistent opinion over the last few years.
I hated to see Arozarena traded away, and that Shildt wouldn't give him any runway over a fading Fowler. Too bad another player couldn't have been subbed into the trade instead of Aroz, who provided a lot of value for the Rays while he was cost controlled.
Anyway, to the OP's question, yes, if Libs can keep this up, reassessment of this trade will and already is taking place.
The final assessment ........................ IDK, ................................. when all the players involved careers are over I guess, lol.
Currently fluid.
I don't know why ecleme decides to be such a bonehead. Everyone here who has posted for any length of time knows how frequently I've talked about this and how my bullishness on Liberatore if given a proper starter's routine has been as consistent as one could be.
So ecleme is going to start some nonsense that I was "silent". He starts stupid arguments like these but this one is next level. Why is he taking shots at me when there have been plenty more posters who swore up and down that any thought of Liberatore as a starter was a stupid one, and that he was destined to be in the bullpen?
Overall, you have been bullish on Libby.
But in the 2023 offseason, you were silent when the Cards signed three pitchers. And I'm not talking the day after the signings. I'm talking throughout the entire offseason, during numerous long threads questioning the Lynn/Gibson/Gray signings, you stayed silent.
Kind of similar to your semi-bullishness of Siani over Scott. And then as the 2025 spring training progressed, you retreated into the shadows.
I'm glad you're back to being bullish on Libby. Happy for you.
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 15:14 pm
by An Old Friend
ecleme22 wrote: ↑07 May 2025 15:08 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑07 May 2025 14:19 pm
JDW wrote: ↑07 May 2025 11:57 am
Countless times Old Friend has posted how the Cards have messed up not giving Libs a consistent chance to develop as a SP. Basically almost every time such a thread came up that I saw, OF was there to voice his opinion that Libs should be given a runway to develop as a SP, not exact words, but a similar and consistent opinion over the last few years.
I hated to see Arozarena traded away, and that Shildt wouldn't give him any runway over a fading Fowler. Too bad another player couldn't have been subbed into the trade instead of Aroz, who provided a lot of value for the Rays while he was cost controlled.
Anyway, to the OP's question, yes, if Libs can keep this up, reassessment of this trade will and already is taking place.
The final assessment ........................ IDK, ................................. when all the players involved careers are over I guess, lol.
Currently fluid.
I don't know why ecleme decides to be such a bonehead. Everyone here who has posted for any length of time knows how frequently I've talked about this and how my bullishness on Liberatore if given a proper starter's routine has been as consistent as one could be.
So ecleme is going to start some nonsense that I was "silent". He starts stupid arguments like these but this one is next level. Why is he taking shots at me when there have been plenty more posters who swore up and down that any thought of Liberatore as a starter was a stupid one, and that he was destined to be in the bullpen?
Overall, you have been bullish on Libby.
Yep, and you've trashed that opinion, consistently, for years.
But in the 2023 offseason, you were silent when the Cards signed three pitchers. And I'm not talking the day after the signings. I'm talking throughout the entire offseason, during numerous long threads questioning the Lynn/Gibson/Gray signings, you stayed silent.
I don't participate in threads I'm not all that interested in. I have been very vocal that I thought Liberatore should be in the rotation taking starts on a regular turn, and disagreed vehemently and consistently that the Cardinals put obstacles in the way of that approach.
How you could possibly say that I've been "silent" is beyond comprehension. It's simply untrue and I have no idea why you'd make such an absurd claim.
Kind of similar to your semi-bullishness of Siani over Scott. And then as the 2025 spring training progressed, you retreated into the shadows.
Yeah, you already tried that nonsense and you got trashed by everyone in the thread. You really want to revisit that?
Oh wait, we can't, because the mods wiped your stupid thread off the forum.
I'm glad you're back to being bullish on Libby. Happy for you.
I've never wavered. Why are you trolling?
Re: so if liberatore becomes a solid starter do we reassess the trade
Posted: 07 May 2025 15:20 pm
by Quincy Varnish
ecleme22 wrote: ↑07 May 2025 11:48 amYou were silent last offseason about those three pitcher signings and the obvious effect it had on Libby's starter chances in 2024.
You know you were.
What are you even out to prove?
Were all of Libby’s supporters supposed to throw a (bleep) temper tantrum when they signed Lance Lynn?
Seems like the guys you should be holding accountable are the ones that insisted Liberatore shouldn’t ever be anything but a middle reliever. But you be you.