Tanking Cardinals to move them?

[mattmitchl44]

I don't know why people keep yapping about attendance of 3 million people a year. They haven't had 3 million of people here in this stadium since before covid. They may have 3 million sold tickets but they can't even give those away. I don't think I've seen more than 10,000 people in the stadium in 2 years. I'll bet they're attendance is closer to 1 million to 1.5 million. St Louis is the smallest city in mlb. There are 279,000 residents in St louis. The next smallest town is Pittsburgh with 310,000. I have been a Cardinals fan for 60 years. I hope to goodness they never leave the area. But these very odd player moves they are making in the name of rebuilding make no sense. And aren't the Dewitt's and Rob Manfred friends? If the Dewitt's want to move the Cardinals or sell the Cardinals nobody's going to stand in their way. And I hope to goodness it never happens but it just doesn't look right. And as to me only having two posts on this forum I used to post here a lot but I got sick of the bullying by a few self entitled/important/informed members whose names I still recognize on here. So I quit posting and even looking at this forum for a few years. Who needs it.

The Houston Astros reduced payroll to 27th, 30th, 29th, and 27th in MLB from 2012-2015, under ownership that took over in 2011. They rebuilt. They did not move the team.

[mattmitchl44]

MLB isn't letting anyone move the Cardinals out of St. Louis.

If there are other markets where MLB could see a team existing, they'll add an expansion franchise long before they let the Cardinals move.

Please articulate that this is just your feeling. You have no actual proof. No DeWitt or anyone from the MLB has said they won't ever move the team or be allowed to move the team. In your opinion the Cards are too important to move, but not important enough to field a competitive team. I'm sure at one point the fans of the Braves, Dodgers, Giants, A's, etc thought the same way. "Not here."

The MLB owners don't profit much, if at all, from the Cardinals moving out of St. Louis, because St. Louis is a very viable market (demonstrated ability to draw 3+ million in attendance, etc.). They profit from selling the rights to an expansion franchise.

They would most likely get a fee from the Cardinals to every team for moving. So they would profit. Also the fan base will see a big drop because of poor product and losing.

Yeah, attendance will go down during the rebuilding years.

Then it will come back up after the rebuild when they are ready to compete again.

That's how this works and is to be expected.

[12xu]

I don't know why people keep yapping about attendance of 3 million people a year. They haven't had 3 million of people here in this stadium since before covid. They may have 3 million sold tickets but they can't even give those away. I don't think I've seen more than 10,000 people in the stadium in 2 years. I'll bet they're attendance is closer to 1 million to 1.5 million. St Louis is the smallest city in mlb. There are 279,000 residents in St louis. The next smallest town is Pittsburgh with 310,000. I have been a Cardinals fan for 60 years. I hope to goodness they never leave the area. But these very odd player moves they are making in the name of rebuilding make no sense. And aren't the Dewitt's and Rob Manfred friends? If the Dewitt's want to move the Cardinals or sell the Cardinals nobody's going to stand in their way. And I hope to goodness it never happens but it just doesn't look right. And as to me only having two posts on this forum I used to post here a lot but I got sick of the bullying by a few self entitled/important/informed members whose names I still recognize on here. So I quit posting and even looking at this forum for a few years. Who needs it.

Please do us all a favor and quit posting again. All your facts are either wrong or just deceptive. You should know that ALL TEAMS attendance reported is tickets sold, not just the Cardinals. St. Louis is not the smallest METRO area in MLB, and that is what really matters. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Kansas City, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh have smaller Metropolitan areas than St. Louis.

[dugoutrex]

I don't know why people keep yapping about attendance of 3 million people a year. They haven't had 3 million of people here in this stadium since before covid. They may have 3 million sold tickets but they can't even give those away. I don't think I've seen more than 10,000 people in the stadium in 2 years. I'll bet they're attendance is closer to 1 million to 1.5 million. St Louis is the smallest city in mlb. There are 279,000 residents in St louis. The next smallest town is Pittsburgh with 310,000. I have been a Cardinals fan for 60 years. I hope to goodness they never leave the area. But these very odd player moves they are making in the name of rebuilding make no sense. And aren't the Dewitt's and Rob Manfred friends? If the Dewitt's want to move the Cardinals or sell the Cardinals nobody's going to stand in their way. And I hope to goodness it never happens but it just doesn't look right. And as to me only having two posts on this forum I used to post here a lot but I got sick of the bullying by a few self entitled/important/informed members whose names I still recognize on here. So I quit posting and even looking at this forum for a few years. Who needs it.

Please do us all a favor and quit posting again. All your facts are either wrong or just deceptive. You should know that ALL TEAMS attendance reported is tickets sold, not just the Cardinals. St. Louis is not the smallest METRO area in MLB, and that is what really matters. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Kansas City, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh have smaller Metropolitan areas than St. Louis.

yes - and they all have been reporting attendance like that for decades

[imetsatchelpaige]

With you on this one...

[Horseradish]

As to Donovan….

He’s a nice player, but would have been of no value on what is going to be a very weak team in 26 and 27

and then he’s a free agent

Trading him brought prospects that the club will control for many years…

The Cards are not going to Austin…..

Nashville or Charlotte most likely…

Dream on, dummy. Those cities may get teams eventually, but they won't get the Cardinal franchise.

I would agree in a sensible world the Cardinals would never leave StL. But MLB no longer makes decisions based on sense. Its all about money. MLB could charge a city much more for a historic franchise than an expansion team. Greedy owners would salivate. And ol Billy DeWitt would probably be on board if he thought it would get him a few easy bucks.

If it’s all about money, they stay in STL and pressure Dewitt to seek if he and his group aren’t interested in spending appropriately. Moving them to any other city would be dumb.

[CCard]

MLB isn't letting anyone move the Cardinals out of St. Louis.

If there are other markets where MLB could see a team existing, they'll add an expansion franchise long before they let the Cardinals move.

Please articulate that this is just your feeling. You have no actual proof. No DeWitt or anyone from the MLB has said they won't ever move the team or be allowed to move the team. In your opinion the Cards are too important to move, but not important enough to field a competitive team. I'm sure at one point the fans of the Braves, Dodgers, Giants, A's, etc thought the same way. "Not here."

The MLB owners don't profit much, if at all, from the Cardinals moving out of St. Louis, because St. Louis is a very viable market (demonstrated ability to draw 3+ million in attendance, etc.). They profit from selling the rights to an expansion franchise.

They would most likely get a fee from the Cardinals to every team for moving. So they would profit. Also the fan base will see a big drop because of poor product and losing.

Yeah, attendance will go down during the rebuilding years.

Then it will come back up after the rebuild when they are ready to compete again.

That's how this works and is to be expected.

No, that's not how it works. Every time a team does this some fans never come back. On top of that, TANKING IS WRONG. How many times do I have to say it. It's morally reprehensible. Even worse, they have the money to field a decent team.

[CCard]

Moron

0.00% chance the Cardinals EVER leave St. Louis

Especially with all the investment around and including the stadium. STL will be home for the duration Rock. Unless, like I mentioned earlier, they get approval for the 'Disney " park in East St. Louis to break ground. Then Bill may pack it in.

MLB would NEVER, EVER approve one of their CROWN JEWEL FRANCHISES w/more baseball history, championships and tradition than any team in MLB not named the NY Yankees!

(And St. Louis blew it back in the early 1960's zuck' when Walt Disney himself wanted to turn the river front where the Arch was bring built into his next theme park and August Busch used his muscle to deny him because Walt didn't want beer sold in the proposed park)

Brooklyn Dodgers, New York Giants, Oakland A's....nah...Baseball would never let that happen.

NO COMPARISON since you're posting second class teams, including two that were based in NYC along w/the Yankees making three teams in one city.

PLUS MLB WANTED desperately to expand west into California and was more than happy to okay the Dodgers and Giants going westward hooooooooo..

The A's had the worst fan support for decades and played in the worst stadium in MLB, bad example.

In the Cardinals you're talking about one of the Top 3 iconic franchises in MLB history, one that drew over 3+M for over two decades in little old St. Lou!

This would be like MLB allowing the Yankees to leave NY for NJ or the Cubs to leave Chicago for Indiana.

NEVER, EVER happening.

Anyone who thinks it would is a moron.

The Cardinals probably won't move, I agree. But the argument that MLB's Billionaire boys club wouldn't let them move is absolutely silly and asinine. The Cards are an inonic team brand, but so are the Braves that moved from Boston. So are the other teams. There's enough population in NY to support more teams than they have, the same with California. Missouri is not a high population state and apparently can't even support an NFL team. Before calling anyone a moron maybe you should inhale a deep breath, look in the mirror and ask yourself "Am I the moron?" If you think about it long enough you might just grab the tail of an idea.

What's asinine is not understanding the MLB "Billionaire boys club" would NEVER, EVER let the Cardinals leave St. Louis.

The Boston Braves were NOT AN ICONIC FRANCHISE!

The Cardinals are in the UPPER PANTHEON of MLB teams, only the NY Yankees sit above them.

Just to educate you the Cardinals draw from one of the largest territories in MLB, drawing hundreds of thousands of fans to Busch Stadium from more states than any team in MLB, St. Louis' metro population of 2.8+M is the cherry on top.

Anyone who thinks the Cardinals will ever move is a MORON........repeat a MORON.

Stop being a MORON.

I'll answer you this without calling you names because I can be an adult. When expansion comes to a place like Nashville, that base will shrink even more. If they put a terrible product on the field it'll shrink even more. I didn't say they would, but this is how you do it.

[JuanAgosto]

As to Donovan….

He’s a nice player, but would have been of no value on what is going to be a very weak team in 26 and 27

and then he’s a free agent

Trading him brought prospects that the club will control for many years…

The Cards are not going to Austin…..

Nashville or Charlotte most likely…

Dream on, dummy. Those cities may get teams eventually, but they won't get the Cardinal franchise.

I would agree in a sensible world the Cardinals would never leave StL. But MLB no longer makes decisions based on sense. Its all about money. MLB could charge a city much more for a historic franchise than an expansion team. Greedy owners would salivate. And ol Billy DeWitt would probably be on board if he thought it would get him a few easy bucks.

If it’s all about money, they stay in STL and pressure Dewitt to seek if he and his group aren’t interested in spending appropriately. Moving them to any other city would be dumb.

Would it? DeWitt could pull a Kroenke, point to dwindling attendance, and an inability to secure a good TV deal. MLB sees massive $$ with what they could charge to award an historic team to a thriving city.

[DwaininAztec]

I don't know why people keep yapping about attendance of 3 million people a year. They haven't had 3 million of people here in this stadium since before covid. They may have 3 million sold tickets but they can't even give those away. I don't think I've seen more than 10,000 people in the stadium in 2 years. I'll bet they're attendance is closer to 1 million to 1.5 million. St Louis is the smallest city in mlb. There are 279,000 residents in St louis. The next smallest town is Pittsburgh with 310,000. I have been a Cardinals fan for 60 years. I hope to goodness they never leave the area. But these very odd player moves they are making in the name of rebuilding make no sense. And aren't the Dewitt's and Rob Manfred friends? If the Dewitt's want to move the Cardinals or sell the Cardinals nobody's going to stand in their way. And I hope to goodness it never happens but it just doesn't look right. And as to me only having two posts on this forum I used to post here a lot but I got sick of the bullying by a few self entitled/important/informed members whose names I still recognize on here. So I quit posting and even looking at this forum for a few years. Who needs it.

I hate to break it to you, but every MLB team reports attendance this way. It started in the AL, then the NL joined in so that they would not look like their attendance was so much lower. Not an issue.

The one advantage the Cardinals have enjoyed over the years is KMOX who broadcast St. Louis Cardinal games far and wide in the midwest, and central Canada. In addition most of St. Louis is in the suburbs which has hemmed in the city. So the Cardinal fan base includes millions of people who do not reside in St. Louis.

[mattmitchl44]

MLB isn't letting anyone move the Cardinals out of St. Louis.

If there are other markets where MLB could see a team existing, they'll add an expansion franchise long before they let the Cardinals move.

Please articulate that this is just your feeling. You have no actual proof. No DeWitt or anyone from the MLB has said they won't ever move the team or be allowed to move the team. In your opinion the Cards are too important to move, but not important enough to field a competitive team. I'm sure at one point the fans of the Braves, Dodgers, Giants, A's, etc thought the same way. "Not here."

The MLB owners don't profit much, if at all, from the Cardinals moving out of St. Louis, because St. Louis is a very viable market (demonstrated ability to draw 3+ million in attendance, etc.). They profit from selling the rights to an expansion franchise.

They would most likely get a fee from the Cardinals to every team for moving. So they would profit. Also the fan base will see a big drop because of poor product and losing.

Yeah, attendance will go down during the rebuilding years.

Then it will come back up after the rebuild when they are ready to compete again.

That's how this works and is to be expected.

No, that's not how it works. Every time a team does this some fans never come back. On top of that, TANKING IS WRONG. How many times do I have to say it. It's morally reprehensible. Even worse, they have the money to field a decent team.

Then other fans must join because attendance - in Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. - rebounded to pre-rebuild levels.

And, again, the point is to stop being stuck at "decent", in the mediocre middle. They're not spending money to be "decent" - they're trying to rebuild the organization so they can be better than that.

[Hazelwood72]

How do any of the moves the Cardinals made this fall make any sense? I could believe it on the premise that we were trying to rebuild until we traded away one of our rebuilding pieces. The Donovan trade made no sense whatsoever. You've got a guy that's under 2 years of control that is ian all star and you trade him away when you're wanting to be rebuilding? It appears to me that the management is looking to tank on purpose. Why would they want to do that? It has always been said the Cardinals would not be moved as long as they were selling lots of tickets. And they historically have. But when the ticket sales fall the MLB is not going to be hesitant it to move them. And ticket sales are as low as I can remember in my life. This team is infinitely more valuable to be sold if it can be moved. There are a lot of bigger towns that could use baseball teams. Austin Texas is a million people and they're underrepresented. Nashville / Louisville / Chattanooga area is grossly underrepresented. MLB would love to get teams in these much higher population areas. The best way to do it would be to buy a team that's already established and move it in there. It looks to me like the dewits are tanking the Cardinals in an effort to be able to move them. If ticket sales are low enough the MLB will approve it. St Louis has 280,000 people now. Austin has a million Chattanooga Louisville Nashville area has almost 3 million people. Memphis is a much bigger town. Folks get used to the idea of the Cardinals not being here- it's probably coming. The DeWitts have no ties to the St Louis area at all. Other than a baseball team they own is inconveniently located here. They just came out a couple of weeks ago and professed undying love for the Cardinals. That doesn't mean St louis. That just means the Cardinals. Look at the Cubs - that stadium is always full no matter how good or bad they are. Why would you invest in players and player development if you're going to fill the stadium based on the population of your area regardless of winning or losing. Is much cheaper to fill the stadium in a huge metropolitan area than it is a small one.

Your numbers are so inaccurate and bogus that they’re laughable. There’s a wonderful thing called Google where you can actually learn some facts.

Per Wikipedia, here are the data from the current Metropolitan Statistical Area list. The MSA counts the city and its suburbs. You need to understand that folks from the suburbs also attend and buy baseball swag, so your quote that St. Louis only has 280,000 is so misleading, one could almost call it a deliberate lie.

Rank Metro Area. Population

23. St. Louis-St. Charles-IL 2,811,927
24. San Antonio-New Braunfels. 2,763,006
25. Austin-Round Rock. 2,550,637
35. Nashville-Davidson 2,150,553
43. Louisville. 1,394,234
45. Memphis. 1,339,345
99. Chattanooga. 588,050

You cited “Louisville/Nashville/Chattanooga” as a single market. It’s 175 miles from Louisville to Nashville and 134 from Nashville to Chattanooga. You think people will routinely drive that far on a weeknight? Plus, it’s only 98 miles from Chattanooga to the Braves ballpark in the north suburbs of Atlanta.

Louisville is only 99 miles from Cincinnati. The Reds ownership would block a franchise in Louisville.

I live in San Antonio. Baseball would be a hard sell here. It’s not a wealthy metro area in general, and the folks here are mostly invested in Spurs basketball, UTSA football, and NFL football. Plus you’d need a domed or retractable roof stadium here due to the heat for 3+ months of the season.

Austin is not fertile ground either. It’s mostly invested in University of Texas sports and Dallas Cowboys football.

And don’t tell me that if you add Austin and San Antonio together…. It’s 90 miles from downtown to downtown and I-35 is miserable in traffic. That concept has been floated and won’t work.

Honestly, if the Cards were going anywhere, Charlotte would be a more likely choice since its metro has 2,883,370 which is slightly larger than St. Louis metro. Portland Oregon might be in the running, but Seattle’s ownership might nix that move. Plus, Portland has a history of other issues totally unrelated to sports.

[CCard]

MLB isn't letting anyone move the Cardinals out of St. Louis.

If there are other markets where MLB could see a team existing, they'll add an expansion franchise long before they let the Cardinals move.

Please articulate that this is just your feeling. You have no actual proof. No DeWitt or anyone from the MLB has said they won't ever move the team or be allowed to move the team. In your opinion the Cards are too important to move, but not important enough to field a competitive team. I'm sure at one point the fans of the Braves, Dodgers, Giants, A's, etc thought the same way. "Not here."

The MLB owners don't profit much, if at all, from the Cardinals moving out of St. Louis, because St. Louis is a very viable market (demonstrated ability to draw 3+ million in attendance, etc.). They profit from selling the rights to an expansion franchise.

They would most likely get a fee from the Cardinals to every team for moving. So they would profit. Also the fan base will see a big drop because of poor product and losing.

Yeah, attendance will go down during the rebuilding years.

Then it will come back up after the rebuild when they are ready to compete again.

That's how this works and is to be expected.

No, that's not how it works. Every time a team does this some fans never come back. On top of that, TANKING IS WRONG. How many times do I have to say it. It's morally reprehensible. Even worse, they have the money to field a decent team.

Then other fans must join because attendance - in Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. - rebounded to pre-rebuild levels.

And, again, the point is to stop being stuck at "decent", in the mediocre middle. They're not spending money to be "decent" - they're trying to rebuild the organization so they can be better than that.

You're right. They're not spending money to be decent. They're not spending money much at all. So the fans will suffer through this austerity so that a billionaire can save some pocket change. Does that seem right to you?

[Cardinals1964]

How do any of the moves the Cardinals made this fall make any sense? I could believe it on the premise that we were trying to rebuild until we traded away one of our rebuilding pieces. The Donovan trade made no sense whatsoever. You've got a guy that's under 2 years of control that is ian all star and you trade him away when you're wanting to be rebuilding? It appears to me that the management is looking to tank on purpose. Why would they want to do that? It has always been said the Cardinals would not be moved as long as they were selling lots of tickets. And they historically have. But when the ticket sales fall the MLB is not going to be hesitant it to move them. And ticket sales are as low as I can remember in my life. This team is infinitely more valuable to be sold if it can be moved. There are a lot of bigger towns that could use baseball teams. Austin Texas is a million people and they're underrepresented. Nashville / Louisville / Chattanooga area is grossly underrepresented. MLB would love to get teams in these much higher population areas. The best way to do it would be to buy a team that's already established and move it in there. It looks to me like the dewits are tanking the Cardinals in an effort to be able to move them. If ticket sales are low enough the MLB will approve it. St Louis has 280,000 people now. Austin has a million Chattanooga Louisville Nashville area has almost 3 million people. Memphis is a much bigger town. Folks get used to the idea of the Cardinals not being here- it's probably coming. The DeWitts have no ties to the St Louis area at all. Other than a baseball team they own is inconveniently located here. They just came out a couple of weeks ago and professed undying love for the Cardinals. That doesn't mean St louis. That just means the Cardinals. Look at the Cubs - that stadium is always full no matter how good or bad they are. Why would you invest in players and player development if you're going to fill the stadium based on the population of your area regardless of winning or losing. Is much cheaper to fill the stadium in a huge metropolitan area than it is a small one.

Another dumb post by a nitwit.

[Cardinals1964]

How do any of the moves the Cardinals made this fall make any sense? I could believe it on the premise that we were trying to rebuild until we traded away one of our rebuilding pieces. The Donovan trade made no sense whatsoever. You've got a guy that's under 2 years of control that is ian all star and you trade him away when you're wanting to be rebuilding? It appears to me that the management is looking to tank on purpose. Why would they want to do that? It has always been said the Cardinals would not be moved as long as they were selling lots of tickets. And they historically have. But when the ticket sales fall the MLB is not going to be hesitant it to move them. And ticket sales are as low as I can remember in my life. This team is infinitely more valuable to be sold if it can be moved. There are a lot of bigger towns that could use baseball teams. Austin Texas is a million people and they're underrepresented. Nashville / Louisville / Chattanooga area is grossly underrepresented. MLB would love to get teams in these much higher population areas. The best way to do it would be to buy a team that's already established and move it in there. It looks to me like the dewits are tanking the Cardinals in an effort to be able to move them. If ticket sales are low enough the MLB will approve it. St Louis has 280,000 people now. Austin has a million Chattanooga Louisville Nashville area has almost 3 million people. Memphis is a much bigger town. Folks get used to the idea of the Cardinals not being here- it's probably coming. The DeWitts have no ties to the St Louis area at all. Other than a baseball team they own is inconveniently located here. They just came out a couple of weeks ago and professed undying love for the Cardinals. That doesn't mean St louis. That just means the Cardinals. Look at the Cubs - that stadium is always full no matter how good or bad they are. Why would you invest in players and player development if you're going to fill the stadium based on the population of your area regardless of winning or losing. Is much cheaper to fill the stadium in a huge metropolitan area than it is a small one.

Ccard, team isn’t for sale.

[mattmitchl44]

MLB isn't letting anyone move the Cardinals out of St. Louis.

If there are other markets where MLB could see a team existing, they'll add an expansion franchise long before they let the Cardinals move.

Please articulate that this is just your feeling. You have no actual proof. No DeWitt or anyone from the MLB has said they won't ever move the team or be allowed to move the team. In your opinion the Cards are too important to move, but not important enough to field a competitive team. I'm sure at one point the fans of the Braves, Dodgers, Giants, A's, etc thought the same way. "Not here."

The MLB owners don't profit much, if at all, from the Cardinals moving out of St. Louis, because St. Louis is a very viable market (demonstrated ability to draw 3+ million in attendance, etc.). They profit from selling the rights to an expansion franchise.

They would most likely get a fee from the Cardinals to every team for moving. So they would profit. Also the fan base will see a big drop because of poor product and losing.

Yeah, attendance will go down during the rebuilding years.

Then it will come back up after the rebuild when they are ready to compete again.

That's how this works and is to be expected.

No, that's not how it works. Every time a team does this some fans never come back. On top of that, TANKING IS WRONG. How many times do I have to say it. It's morally reprehensible. Even worse, they have the money to field a decent team.

Then other fans must join because attendance - in Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. - rebounded to pre-rebuild levels.

And, again, the point is to stop being stuck at "decent", in the mediocre middle. They're not spending money to be "decent" - they're trying to rebuild the organization so they can be better than that.

You're right. They're not spending money to be decent. They're not spending money much at all. So the fans will suffer through this austerity so that a billionaire can save some pocket change. Does that seem right to you?

I'm not obsessed with the owners' pockets. I just want to see this organization get back to where it can compete for a World Series title.