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Melville wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 15:13 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 12:56 pm

Melville wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 12:12 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 10:06 am

Melville wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 08:57 am

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 07:39 am They will trade Donovan in the next few days. His value will never be higher and Bloom won't overplay his hand. They know all about the other teams players and what they want. There is no delay for that. This is simply looking at 4-5 offers and giving it a few days to see if one of the suitors blinks and offers over and above the current value. If no one blinks they already know which offer they will take.

Agree it will happen soon.
Strategically, I believe it is a mistake on Bloom's part, for several reasons.
But he seems committed to that path.
So, we will simply have to wait to see what the return will be when he pulls the trigger and evaluate then.

How can trading Donovan be a "strategic mistake"?

Fair question.
I have explained it previously in detail and will repeat it in short form now.
One, foolish to write off 2026 just yet - with a couple of relatively easy moves the team can be positioned to compete for a W/C in 2026 AND build for the future at the same time - choosing between the two is a false choice completely.
Two, Donovan in LF in 2026 makes the team better.
Three, Donovan as insurance against performance or injury at 2b, 3b, and SS could be invaluable
Four, offering an extension should not be discarded until attempted
Five, the team can address each of those items through the end of July and deal Donovan then if circumstances merit the move

One, While I'd love to not be going through this re-build unfortunately BDWJr/Mo's mismanagement of the minor league system has made it inevitable.

And Dewitt isn't going to spend this season knowing the new CBA is coming up at seasons end.

Two...three...four...none of these fit in w/the re-build.

Donny is Bloom's best trade asset, the one player who could bring back a strong pitching prospect who could be ready by the 2027 season.

And no way Dewitt is giving him an extension, he's looking at the same or more than T. Edman got ($75M/5 yrs).

Waiting till July risk 1) injury...2) he gets off to a slow start and 3) he has more value to a team for 162 games vs 80+.

I'd love to keep him and compete in 2026 too mel, but the writings on the wall and Dewitt isn't going to allow that to happen (re: he's spending no money).

Except, of course, it is not a rebuild.
According to Bloom.
Nor should it be.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 06:27 am

2ninr wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 06:10 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 05:56 am

renostl wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 17:27 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 17:01 pm It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Actually, if they are going to commit to doing this rebuild correctly, they have to trade Gray, Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan - because they need the prospect value those guys will bring in return to further accelerate the rebuild - if they are going to compete again, even to win the NL Central, as soon as 2027 or 2028 instead of 2029, 2030, etc.

As promising as Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are as future stars of the ML team, they can't put all of the eggs in a limited number of baskets. They absolutely need to go out and add ML-ready or near ML-ready prospects, in particular ones with higher ceilings who may develop into their much needed young stars if Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. don't quite get there.

At this point, it's not about subtracting payroll, it's about adding prospect value to the organization. But those two things are going to effectively go hand-in-hand, because you gather prospect value by trading veteran players, who also will be your higher paid players.

Many people just aren't interested in understanding that. It's not about Bill saving pennies.

Right - or, even though the team has to send 2026 money with Gray, Arenado, Contreras to get that maximum prospect value back - they still demand that they go out and spend a lot of money right now to sign new, veteran players to "compete" in 2026.

But they still don't yet have the actual core of young talent at the ML level to do that.

Having the "#1 ranked farm system" and adding more ML-ready prospect talent to that does not immediately materialize young talent actually producing at the ML level. There is a "time delay" to the rebuilding process. Even once Wetherholt, Doyle, and whoever else get to the majors, it will probably take then at least a year or two to find their footing and actually start realizing their potential.

They will most likely really be ready to "compete" again when Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are in their 2nd or 3rd ML seasons, not now.

Or they will conjure up some unspecified way that Bloom is supposed to go out and obtain known "impact talent." But the only two commodities a GM has to go out and obtain known "impact talent" are (1) money and (2) giving up talent from your organization. Some have conjured up "just go trade with SD for Tatis!" - but the only way you are getting Tatis is having to give up Wetherholt, Doyle - or probably BOTH.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 05:56 am

renostl wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 17:27 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑10 Dec 2025 17:01 pm It surprises me that some still haven't accepted this is a rebuild. And that unless the team opens the coffers to spend near $200 mil, which is about a $90 mil more than I expect, they can't compete. Wisdom is accepting the things you can't change.

And based on fan base, TV revenues and the looming contract dispute there is no way they are upping the spending. So it is a rebuild and Donovan isn't under control when they expect the results to appear so he is obvious trade material.

I mean hey, if one of you can convince them to sign Tucker, Bregman and Suarez then I'm on the bandwagon and they should keep Donovan.

A few counters,

This rebuild is already in the build phase. There is nothing that has to be dealt away. The Cards have a whole $33M in contracts for 2027.

There is a tremendous difference in $100M and $200M

There are tremendous differences in the players that you named and Donovan.

Wisdom is not assuming, you seem to be doing that in one knowing what they will spend and two
that $200M has to be spent to be competitive. Competitive does have different definitions. Mine
is with a goal of winning the division with desires of more. The posts that I remember of
yours doesn't place you as a WS or bust but I may be wrong.

Actually, if they are going to commit to doing this rebuild correctly, they have to trade Gray, Arenado, Contreras, and Donovan - because they need the prospect value those guys will bring in return to further accelerate the rebuild - if they are going to compete again, even to win the NL Central, as soon as 2027 or 2028 instead of 2029, 2030, etc.

As promising as Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. are as future stars of the ML team, they can't put all of the eggs in a limited number of baskets. They absolutely need to go out and add ML-ready or near ML-ready prospects, in particular ones with higher ceilings who may develop into their much needed young stars if Wetherholt, Doyle, etc. don't quite get there.

At this point, it's not about subtracting payroll, it's about adding prospect value to the organization. But those two things are going to effectively go hand-in-hand, because you gather prospect value by trading veteran players, who also will be your higher paid players.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑05 Dec 2025 11:48 am I will be sad to see him traded. I understand the need and am not against it, but he took the most consistent, smartest ABs on the team and I will miss watching that. His approach was hopefully influential to at least a few others.

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:51 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

Maybe it takes a player to know a player. Did these high level authorities play like we did- daily.

Need a real ball player heading your assessment department.

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:56 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:51 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

Maybe it takes a player to know a player. Did these high level authorities play like we did- daily.

Need a real ball player heading your assessment department.

These bozos are sitting around looking at speed swing potential, launch angle, some stupid WAR fantasy. MLB is now a Pass Punt and Kick competition without a lick of connection to what they do on the diamond when the game starts.

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:56 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:51 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

Maybe it takes a player to know a player. Did these high level authorities play like we did- daily.

Need a real ball player heading your assessment department.

These bozos are sitting around looking at speed swing potential, launch angle, some stupid WAR fantasy. MLB is now a Pass Punt and Kick competition without a lick of connection to what they do on the diamond when the game starts.

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

You may be right, or you may be not.

Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.

Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.

The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 08:54 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

You may be right, or you may be not.

Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.

Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.

The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.

The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.

It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.

I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.

One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!

rockondlouie wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 08:54 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 07:47 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2025 05:44 am

renostl wrote: ↑11 Dec 2025 23:36 pm True.
I'll assume, bad of me, that NA gets dealt, Gray is gone, WC who knows.
After those 2 additional, it's time to be selective. Not that anyone is untouchable,
it is about selecting a roster as a whole, to build.

I see that much more in the build phase. Selecting who may be a part of it that increases the overall team.
Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Jo Jo, Walker, Scott, Saggese, Catching, along with some pitchers can also be
tapped to improve the team too. It does not have to be the soupe de jour of Donovan IF his skills are
seen as desired. Who is he in the way of thoughts should be used on each player.

We can set back and determine Donovan isn't the future, that he will bring the most back. We might
be hard pressed to prove that though. The difference between what Donovan plus Jo Jo bring back compared
to Burleson plus Jo Jo, depends who is buying and what's in the buyers system. The point if I have one
is be selective with what stays. They have more than one catcher with upside. They can't all catch
might need a secondary position.

As regards Herrera, Burleson, Nootbaar, Walker, Gorman, Saggese, Pages, Crooks, etc. - this is where (1) talent evaluation and (2) talent development come in.

This Cardinals FO has to be better at evaluating what they believe those guys actual potentials are. That's always the first step in deciding whether they are likely part of the "core" of this team going forward, or a player the Cardinals should sell now on if some other team comes with an offer that value them much higher than the Cardinals. They could sell or hold on any of those guys.

Then you have to trust that the Cardinals can improve their talent development to help the guys that they keep reach their potential.

Let’s give this a try Matt

Herrera- Not a C…..good to great power…..good avg…..Keep
Burly-no position …..slightly above avg hitter….Keep
Noot- always hurt…..inconsistent….flawed….Trade
Walker-poor D…not able to adjust to MLB Pitching….should be at AAA
Gorman- poor D….inconsistent…not able to adjust to MLB pitching….Trade
Saggese- role player on good team….not starter
Pages- backup C
Crooks- incomplete
This is an assessment from a guy watching on the couch. Highly elevated….salaried….baseball “experts” should have been able to see all this some time ago like I did

You may be right, or you may be not.

Your evaluation is based on what you have seen, but the Cardinals evaluation needs to be on what are those guys potentially able to do if the current FO's talent development system works with them. Part of the evaluation - that you can't know - is how badly flawed the Cardinals talent development was and what the effect on those players can be with new instructors, pitching/hitting labs, approaches to teach, etc.

Or likewise, they could decide that a guy like Herrera or Burleson should be "sold high" on right now because they project that their effectiveness will fall off when the league catches up to them. I don't necessarily think that is the case, but it is possible that could be another result.

The only thing that is 100% true is that any of us commenting on CT know less about the evaluation/projection of a specific player that has been in the Cardinals system for years than the Cardinals organization does as a whole.

The weak player development system under Mo was absolutely at fault in impeding a lot of these young players development to their full potential.

It's why I haven't been heavily in on dumping Norman or J. Walk just yet, the smart move is to see if Bloom's team of development coaches/executives can resurrect their careers first.

I recall duce making some post last season that he's seen some nice improvement in some of the minor league players he follows already.

One thing's for sure, the Cardinals have some talent (even if under developed) as other teams (and their talent evaluators) are hot & heavy after Donovan, JoJo, Burleson and even Noot!