Kyrou - benched

[John Cocktoastin]

Thank gawd.

[hotrivets]

WHEN he finds quiet space and somebody feeds him he can be a deadly sniper- great shot. He is very good at stealing pucks but not puck possession because he is easily pushed off the puck. None of this has changed. I said for years guys have to be tired of doing all the work so he can float and score- who wouldn't be?

Never liked him, hope he gets traded, hope he does poorly there- unless he changes his game.

[desertrat23]

We're just focused on different things. The reason I focus on the player in this situation is the "necessary but not sufficient" aspect. Had the Blues "handled" him better, that may have been necessary to achieve a better outcome, but it would never have been sufficient.

Whereas. Consider the contra - let's say Kyrou was a born competitor, someone who dug in when the going got tough, but the Blues still didn't handle him well. He would at some point shine through with a new coach, or he will go to his next team and show everyone the heart of a champion and prove everyone wrong. The problem is he's proving it out of reaction to being criticized, not because it's inherent in him to be mortified about being in this healthy scratch position. I don't worry for one second that Kyrou's taking anyone else to a Cup. You don't fear guys like this, they aren't going to beat you when that final clock is counting down.

As far as has Armstrong shown himself to have shrewd judgment sticking with this player and building on him and the statements he has made about him ... we agree Armstrong has a ton to be criticized with following up the Cup era with the Kyrou/Krug/Faulk/Newly Extended Buchnevich era. That is a lot of self ownage to overcome.

Whereas I look it as you have an asset and are in positions of power and due to emotion and other variables, you publicly treat that asset poorly which only serves to hurt your organization.

My feelings aside on Kyrou, the Blues have handled him very, very poorly, which to me is the much bigger problem for the organization.

Well, if it meant that they're also going to mishandle other talented players because of something systematic, then it is a bigger problem, but I don't feel persuaded they have mishandled other prospects systematically. Kyrou helped the Blues mishandle him at a minimum. If it's truly evidence of a pattern and rot, we should have seen that throughout the 2010s with Armstrong and we should be seeing it now with Snuggerud, Dvorsky, etc. I don't think it happened with Thomas. Is it happening with Broberg? Neighbours? Holloway? these are other first round talents certainly in Kyrou's pedigree range.

The problem is that Kyrou isn't a special case in my opinion, off the top of my head Pierre Luc Debois, Patrik Laine, and Johnathan Huberdeau come to mind as some players that have the same question marks with similar expectations (and salaries). Hell you might even be able to toss in David Perron there too before he left STL the first time.

IMO this just happens sometimes, maturation is a process it happens later for some than others. I don't fault the Blues for looking at the data and saying this makes sense and being surprised that the 2-way game is a little slow. I hate scapegoating in team sports though, it will always rub me the wrong way. There are so few players in this league who are literal instant offense without dependency.

I feel like your strongest point is scapegoating in team sports, there is real meat to that one as a general principle so I can understand why that is prompting your argument.

BUT on the flip side, intelligent processors of observation including his immediately responsible coaches that something critical is missing with this player, as opposed to the other players. You should also appreciate that for the last now seven consecutive seasons we have been hearing the pro-Kyrou case. It usually goes like, "these stats show how critical he is and you're cutting off your nose to spite your face if you think he is the issue." I completely absorb the argument. I still land where I land on this player, and that's a good faith calculus of all I know about hockey and competition in general.

My counter to that is you need to score to win games and Kyrou has shown he CAN do that, there are offensive specialists in this league who will never be great two way players. Good teams can afford those players, it's a team game Kyrou was doing as good as anyone in the first 10 games.

It seems disingenuous to say that Kyrou has not made good strides in his two way game the last 100 games or so (basically since Berube left). He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be but unless you can finish then none of that matters. It's why players like Neighbours are so vitally important to teams but not everyone is that type of player. This should be acceptable for good teams.

The Kyrou debate (pro and con) is the most bizarre thing I've seen in the Blues' universe in decades. He's such a polarizing guy and I just don't get it. What's interesting to me is the discourse I see from time to time about him -- one of these is you, some of it is what I've seen on Twitter:
"He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be..."
"Not every hockey player has to be physical..."
"You scratch players off of one game?"
"Scratching him is delusional/the organization is pathetic/our coach is an idiot..."

Sorry, but I would expect the highest-paid guy on the team to be a "heart and soul" guy. "Good" teams also don't have their top-dollar guys have so many limitations. Kyrou is what he is. A streaky, offense-first guy who seems a little too sensitive and is good, but not great offensively. Nothing I've seen from him indicates that he can't be replaced.
If he'

[TheJackBurton]

I say it in every Kyrou thread...why Kyrou was not part of the Tkachuk offer was absolutely incompetent.

In before someone says that Florida made a better offer. But maybe the Flames valued a young guy like Kyrou more then a 30ish UFA to be. Maybe the Blues offer would have come in before Florida's and the Flames jump on it. Whatever the reason, if the Blues would have at least offered Kyrou and the Flames went with Florida, I would not be hung up on it. I am pizzed that Army lowballed when offering Kyrou was the obvious play.

That was a crossroads moment for the two teams I follow and, well, we all see how it turned out.

i don't disagree and have never disagreed, but I also understand Army's thinking at that moment.

what we don't know is if Calgary gave Doug a chance to match or better Floridas offer.

[Rickster]

Kyrou being the organizations scapegoat again. Majority of players on roster deserve scratches over him. Like this is suddenly going to make your goalies be able to stop a beach ball. League worst goaltending duo this year is the primary issue. Offense and Defense confidence comes from being able to rely on your goalies you can't rely on either of Binnington or Hofer this year.

my thoughts exactly...Broberg and Suter are really the only players playing well the whole first 14 games. Kyrou has been bad so far in Nov, but he was our only source of offense in Oct, along with Suter and Neighbors. Put him in the press box after some bad games?...fine. But if anyone thinks benching the guy who can actually generate offense is suddenly going to make our 3rd worst team save % of .850 better, get a grip.

[theograce]

What about the non scoresheet play that destroyed the Blues last night

they sound completely effed if that destroyed them.

Watch Binningtons effort/read on the Ovie goal that Ovie called a muffin after the game.

Buchnevich can’t score. He pouts. He doesn’t sacrifice. Tell me why he’s continually playing next to Thomas again.

Kyrou's failed effort came immediately after an utter hero effort by Sunny, still trying to block every shot desperately. That was a nightmare shift and it's a moment that you have to show you're capable of pushing through if what's been weighing on you, supposedly, is the crushing defeat of last season in the last crucible moment.

Again you're not getting pushback from me on Buchnevich

The Caps were on home ice and had lost 4 in a row. They weren’t losing that game. Their vets were ready and you could tell. It reminded me when the Caps pounded the Blues 8-1 last year.

If one early play can result in complete and utter domination then much bigger problems in the house. The entire team was garbage.

[desertrat23]

Kyrou being the organizations scapegoat again. Majority of players on roster deserve scratches over him. Like this is suddenly going to make your goalies be able to stop a beach ball. League worst goaltending duo this year is the primary issue. Offense and Defense confidence comes from being able to rely on your goalies you can't rely on either of Binnington or Hofer this year.

my thoughts exactly...Broberg and Suter are really the only players playing well the whole first 14 games. Kyrou has been bad so far in Nov, but he was our only source of offense in Oct, along with Suter and Neighbors. Put him in the press box after some bad games?...fine. But if anyone thinks benching the guy who can actually generate offense is suddenly going to make our 3rd worst team save % of .850 better, get a grip.

It's one game. Nothing seen here to indicate that it's a permanent thing or he's the only one who will be benched. Get a grip.

[theograce]

Kyrou being the organizations scapegoat again. Majority of players on roster deserve scratches over him. Like this is suddenly going to make your goalies be able to stop a beach ball. League worst goaltending duo this year is the primary issue. Offense and Defense confidence comes from being able to rely on your goalies you can't rely on either of Binnington or Hofer this year.

my thoughts exactly...Broberg and Suter are really the only players playing well the whole first 14 games. Kyrou has been bad so far in Nov, but he was our only source of offense in Oct, along with Suter and Neighbors. Put him in the press box after some bad games?...fine. But if anyone thinks benching the guy who can actually generate offense is suddenly going to make our 3rd worst team save % of .850 better, get a grip.

I need more passion from Broberg. Hasn’t been that good for me

[skilles]

We're just focused on different things. The reason I focus on the player in this situation is the "necessary but not sufficient" aspect. Had the Blues "handled" him better, that may have been necessary to achieve a better outcome, but it would never have been sufficient.

Whereas. Consider the contra - let's say Kyrou was a born competitor, someone who dug in when the going got tough, but the Blues still didn't handle him well. He would at some point shine through with a new coach, or he will go to his next team and show everyone the heart of a champion and prove everyone wrong. The problem is he's proving it out of reaction to being criticized, not because it's inherent in him to be mortified about being in this healthy scratch position. I don't worry for one second that Kyrou's taking anyone else to a Cup. You don't fear guys like this, they aren't going to beat you when that final clock is counting down.

As far as has Armstrong shown himself to have shrewd judgment sticking with this player and building on him and the statements he has made about him ... we agree Armstrong has a ton to be criticized with following up the Cup era with the Kyrou/Krug/Faulk/Newly Extended Buchnevich era. That is a lot of self ownage to overcome.

Whereas I look it as you have an asset and are in positions of power and due to emotion and other variables, you publicly treat that asset poorly which only serves to hurt your organization.

My feelings aside on Kyrou, the Blues have handled him very, very poorly, which to me is the much bigger problem for the organization.

Well, if it meant that they're also going to mishandle other talented players because of something systematic, then it is a bigger problem, but I don't feel persuaded they have mishandled other prospects systematically. Kyrou helped the Blues mishandle him at a minimum. If it's truly evidence of a pattern and rot, we should have seen that throughout the 2010s with Armstrong and we should be seeing it now with Snuggerud, Dvorsky, etc. I don't think it happened with Thomas. Is it happening with Broberg? Neighbours? Holloway? these are other first round talents certainly in Kyrou's pedigree range.

The problem is that Kyrou isn't a special case in my opinion, off the top of my head Pierre Luc Debois, Patrik Laine, and Johnathan Huberdeau come to mind as some players that have the same question marks with similar expectations (and salaries). Hell you might even be able to toss in David Perron there too before he left STL the first time.

IMO this just happens sometimes, maturation is a process it happens later for some than others. I don't fault the Blues for looking at the data and saying this makes sense and being surprised that the 2-way game is a little slow. I hate scapegoating in team sports though, it will always rub me the wrong way. There are so few players in this league who are literal instant offense without dependency.

I feel like your strongest point is scapegoating in team sports, there is real meat to that one as a general principle so I can understand why that is prompting your argument.

BUT on the flip side, intelligent processors of observation including his immediately responsible coaches that something critical is missing with this player, as opposed to the other players. You should also appreciate that for the last now seven consecutive seasons we have been hearing the pro-Kyrou case. It usually goes like, "these stats show how critical he is and you're cutting off your nose to spite your face if you think he is the issue." I completely absorb the argument. I still land where I land on this player, and that's a good faith calculus of all I know about hockey and competition in general.

My counter to that is you need to score to win games and Kyrou has shown he CAN do that, there are offensive specialists in this league who will never be great two way players. Good teams can afford those players, it's a team game Kyrou was doing as good as anyone in the first 10 games.

It seems disingenuous to say that Kyrou has not made good strides in his two way game the last 100 games or so (basically since Berube left). He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be but unless you can finish then none of that matters. It's why players like Neighbours are so vitally important to teams but not everyone is that type of player. This should be acceptable for good teams.

The Kyrou debate (pro and con) is the most bizarre thing I've seen in the Blues' universe in decades. He's such a polarizing guy and I just don't get it. What's interesting to me is the discourse I see from time to time about him -- one of these is you, some of it is what I've seen on Twitter:
"He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be..."
"Not every hockey player has to be physical..."
"You scratch players off of one game?"
"Scratching him is delusional/the organization is pathetic/our coach is an idiot..."

Sorry, but I would expect the highest-paid guy on the team to be a "heart and soul" guy. "Good" teams also don't have their top-dollar guys have so many limitations. Kyrou is what he is. A streaky, offense-first guy who seems a little too sensitive and is good, but not great offensively. Nothing I've seen from him indicates that he can't be replaced.
If he'

I don't think you scratch 8 million $ players period or treat them the way the Blues have, you play them, rack up the numbers, act like all is great, and trade them first chance you get for a good return if they are a problem.

[desertrat23]

We're just focused on different things. The reason I focus on the player in this situation is the "necessary but not sufficient" aspect. Had the Blues "handled" him better, that may have been necessary to achieve a better outcome, but it would never have been sufficient.

Whereas. Consider the contra - let's say Kyrou was a born competitor, someone who dug in when the going got tough, but the Blues still didn't handle him well. He would at some point shine through with a new coach, or he will go to his next team and show everyone the heart of a champion and prove everyone wrong. The problem is he's proving it out of reaction to being criticized, not because it's inherent in him to be mortified about being in this healthy scratch position. I don't worry for one second that Kyrou's taking anyone else to a Cup. You don't fear guys like this, they aren't going to beat you when that final clock is counting down.

As far as has Armstrong shown himself to have shrewd judgment sticking with this player and building on him and the statements he has made about him ... we agree Armstrong has a ton to be criticized with following up the Cup era with the Kyrou/Krug/Faulk/Newly Extended Buchnevich era. That is a lot of self ownage to overcome.

Whereas I look it as you have an asset and are in positions of power and due to emotion and other variables, you publicly treat that asset poorly which only serves to hurt your organization.

My feelings aside on Kyrou, the Blues have handled him very, very poorly, which to me is the much bigger problem for the organization.

Well, if it meant that they're also going to mishandle other talented players because of something systematic, then it is a bigger problem, but I don't feel persuaded they have mishandled other prospects systematically. Kyrou helped the Blues mishandle him at a minimum. If it's truly evidence of a pattern and rot, we should have seen that throughout the 2010s with Armstrong and we should be seeing it now with Snuggerud, Dvorsky, etc. I don't think it happened with Thomas. Is it happening with Broberg? Neighbours? Holloway? these are other first round talents certainly in Kyrou's pedigree range.

The problem is that Kyrou isn't a special case in my opinion, off the top of my head Pierre Luc Debois, Patrik Laine, and Johnathan Huberdeau come to mind as some players that have the same question marks with similar expectations (and salaries). Hell you might even be able to toss in David Perron there too before he left STL the first time.

IMO this just happens sometimes, maturation is a process it happens later for some than others. I don't fault the Blues for looking at the data and saying this makes sense and being surprised that the 2-way game is a little slow. I hate scapegoating in team sports though, it will always rub me the wrong way. There are so few players in this league who are literal instant offense without dependency.

I feel like your strongest point is scapegoating in team sports, there is real meat to that one as a general principle so I can understand why that is prompting your argument.

BUT on the flip side, intelligent processors of observation including his immediately responsible coaches that something critical is missing with this player, as opposed to the other players. You should also appreciate that for the last now seven consecutive seasons we have been hearing the pro-Kyrou case. It usually goes like, "these stats show how critical he is and you're cutting off your nose to spite your face if you think he is the issue." I completely absorb the argument. I still land where I land on this player, and that's a good faith calculus of all I know about hockey and competition in general.

My counter to that is you need to score to win games and Kyrou has shown he CAN do that, there are offensive specialists in this league who will never be great two way players. Good teams can afford those players, it's a team game Kyrou was doing as good as anyone in the first 10 games.

It seems disingenuous to say that Kyrou has not made good strides in his two way game the last 100 games or so (basically since Berube left). He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be but unless you can finish then none of that matters. It's why players like Neighbours are so vitally important to teams but not everyone is that type of player. This should be acceptable for good teams.

The Kyrou debate (pro and con) is the most bizarre thing I've seen in the Blues' universe in decades. He's such a polarizing guy and I just don't get it. What's interesting to me is the discourse I see from time to time about him -- one of these is you, some of it is what I've seen on Twitter:
"He will never be the heart and soul guy you want him to be..."
"Not every hockey player has to be physical..."
"You scratch players off of one game?"
"Scratching him is delusional/the organization is pathetic/our coach is an idiot..."

Sorry, but I would expect the highest-paid guy on the team to be a "heart and soul" guy. "Good" teams also don't have their top-dollar guys have so many limitations. Kyrou is what he is. A streaky, offense-first guy who seems a little too sensitive and is good, but not great offensively. Nothing I've seen from him indicates that he can't be replaced.
If he'

I don't think you scratch 8 million $ players period or treat them the way the Blues have, you play them, rack up the numbers, act like all is great, and trade them first chance you get for a good return if they are a problem.

Poor Jordan -- highest-paid guy on the team is expected to produce. What exactly have they done to treat him so poorly? Bench him one time?

[TheHighHat]

Would they, would you?

Pass the trash on 2 guys that need a change of scenery.
Trade Kyrou to NY for Lafreniere.

Laffy is younger and slightly cheaper. He’s been horrible since signing his extension.
Was he a one hit wonder?

Amazingly the Rangers have been worse at home than the Blues.
They also have the worst PP in the league and are also near the bottom in goal scoring.

It sounds like NY wants to see if the soon to return Trocheck can ignite Lafreniere before they make a move though.
My guess is that Drury will wait until near the TDL before he makes decision on Panarin.

The Rangers are wasting very good goaltending on a handful of washed up & overpaid veteran forwards.
They also need a left shot puck moving 2nd pair d-man.

[crookedfeeder]

Would they, would you?

Pass the trash on 2 guys that need a change of scenery.
Trade Kyrou to NY for Lafreniere.

Laffy is younger and slightly cheaper. He’s been horrible since signing his extension.
Was he a one hit wonder?

Amazingly the Rangers have been worse at home than the Blues.
They also have the worst PP in the league and are also near the bottom in goal scoring.

It sounds like NY wants to see if the soon to return Trocheck can ignite Lafreniere before they make a move though.
My guess is that Drury will wait until near the TDL before he makes decision on Panarin.

The Rangers are wasting very good goaltending on a handful of washed up & overpaid veteran forwards.
They also need a left shot puck moving 2nd pair d-man.

I'd do it for Will Cuylle and Brennan Othmann. Not a fan of Lafreniere at all.

I do like LA's Alex Laferriere. Close enough name.

[Bacchk29]

If I’m Kyrou I tell my agent talk to Army about finding somewhere for me to go. Tired of being the scapegoat for other issues in the organization.

[desertrat23]

If I’m Kyrou I tell my agent talk to Army about finding somewhere for me to go. Tired of being the scapegoat for other issues in the organization.

Aside from this benching, what has the organization (not the fanbase) done to make him the scapegoat, other than make him the highest-paid player on the team and give him full no-move protection?