STLtoday.com

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:41 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:14 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:42 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:38 am As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

There IS a market there. We should not be deceived about what that market is. For many of those mentioned, when we find out what the market is, they should be traded. It is time to re-shuffle the Cards.

Again -- what trades would you suggest in this market? I am just tired of the hue and cry to "trade our guys," without a smidgen of details on the return.
What do you reasonably think they can get BACK for guys like Nado, Burly, Noot?
Do you seriously think they could get back a power bat or a good starter? Who - and from whom?

You get some prospects.
Noot is nothing
Nado is done and owed a chit ton of $$
Every org has a guy like Burly
Perhaps Donny brings an avg MLer back…..but what does that Do for you?
Gray is old and owed $$$…perhaps a big market needing the arm to put over the top….but he has record a choking in big markets….and where its hot
Contreras……perhaps Best possibility but again not a game changing return
And NO team wants or needs a combination of those

I guess we're just doomed then. Sigh.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 02:11 am Goold's chat today was both long and very convoluted in terms of the many directions the Cards could go.

He was adamant that Walker would not be sent down. He will either succeed or fail at the big league level.

The Cards will as indicated push hard to trade Arenado and Gray. He seemed to feel that Gray had real trade value and the team option formed a pivot point to increase that value.

They will listen to offers on Donovan and Burleson but will need to be blown away.

Based on the interview a few days ago with Bloom, he is clearly focused on fixing the pitching holes in the organization. We obviously have holes in the OF. Maybe we get lucky and get a high draft pick this year that gives us a fast rising OF slugger. We can hope.

I am guessing Bloom makes 4-5 trades this offseason and there will be some surprises. If he can come out of the offseason with a good OF prospect and a SP prospect that has #2/#3 near ML ready potential, it should probably be considered a good offseason. I am guessing they will get several more back of the rotation/BP arms for a couple other pieces moved, including Arenado and Gray. Goold was more optimistic about the return for Gray. He seemed to think a #3 type SP prospect that was 2 years away was possible.

If they can come out of 2026 and have the needs down to 1 SP, 1 OF/MOTOB and 2 RP to be a playoff contender, in 2027 then 2026 was an overwhelming success.

Goldfan wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 11:39 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:41 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:14 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:42 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:38 am As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

There IS a market there. We should not be deceived about what that market is. For many of those mentioned, when we find out what the market is, they should be traded. It is time to re-shuffle the Cards.

Again -- what trades would you suggest in this market? I am just tired of the hue and cry to "trade our guys," without a smidgen of details on the return.
What do you reasonably think they can get BACK for guys like Nado, Burly, Noot?
Do you seriously think they could get back a power bat or a good starter? Who - and from whom?

You get some prospects.
Noot is nothing
Nado is done and owed a chit ton of $$
Every org has a guy like Burly
Perhaps Donny brings an avg MLer back…..but what does that Do for you?
Gray is old and owed $$$…perhaps a big market needing the arm to put over the top….but he has record a choking in big markets….and where its hot
Contreras……perhaps Best possibility but again not a game changing return
And NO team wants or needs a combination of those

I guess we're just doomed then. Sigh.

Not doomed
You keep your good players and add better players.
You purge your bad players, proposing trades with bad players is thinking the pros with all the other clubs are somehow blind to your bad players.
Hopefully some of the minor league talent can play, but this club isn’t getting better without spending $$$

Goldfan wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:14 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:42 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 09:38 am As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

There IS a market there. We should not be deceived about what that market is. For many of those mentioned, when we find out what the market is, they should be traded. It is time to re-shuffle the Cards.

Again -- what trades would you suggest in this market? I am just tired of the hue and cry to "trade our guys," without a smidgen of details on the return.
What do you reasonably think they can get BACK for guys like Nado, Burly, Noot?
Do you seriously think they could get back a power bat or a good starter? Who - and from whom?

You get some prospects.
Noot is nothing
Nado is done and owed a chit ton of $$
Every org has a guy like Burly
Perhaps Donny brings an avg MLer back…..but what does that Do for you?
Gray is old and owed $$$…perhaps a big market needing the arm to put over the top….but he has record a choking in big markets….and where its hot
Contreras……perhaps Best possibility but again not a game changing return
And NO team wants or needs a combination of those

Goldfan wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 11:43 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 02:11 am Goold's chat today was both long and very convoluted in terms of the many directions the Cards could go.

He was adamant that Walker would not be sent down. He will either succeed or fail at the big league level.

The Cards will as indicated push hard to trade Arenado and Gray. He seemed to feel that Gray had real trade value and the team option formed a pivot point to increase that value.

They will listen to offers on Donovan and Burleson but will need to be blown away.

Based on the interview a few days ago with Bloom, he is clearly focused on fixing the pitching holes in the organization. We obviously have holes in the OF. Maybe we get lucky and get a high draft pick this year that gives us a fast rising OF slugger. We can hope.

I am guessing Bloom makes 4-5 trades this offseason and there will be some surprises. If he can come out of the offseason with a good OF prospect and a SP prospect that has #2/#3 near ML ready potential, it should probably be considered a good offseason. I am guessing they will get several more back of the rotation/BP arms for a couple other pieces moved, including Arenado and Gray. Goold was more optimistic about the return for Gray. He seemed to think a #3 type SP prospect that was 2 years away was possible.

If they can come out of 2026 and have the needs down to 1 SP, 1 OF/MOTOB and 2 RP to be a playoff contender, in 2027 then 2026 was an overwhelming success.

Either Goold or Cards are idiots then, if this isn’t failing…….Lord help us

Gorman
‘24
.203, .271, .400,.671
‘25
.205, .296, .370, .666



Walker
‘24
.201, .253, .366, .619
‘25
.215, .278, .306, .584

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 21:04 pm

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 14:31 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 11:20 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 08:25 am 1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 21:04 pm

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 14:31 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 11:20 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 08:25 am 1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 17:38 pm

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 22:20 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 17:38 pm

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 10:23 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 09:39 am

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 04:34 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 02:11 am Goold's chat today was both long and very convoluted in terms of the many directions the Cards could go.

He was adamant that Walker would not be sent down. He will either succeed or fail at the big league level.

The Cards will as indicated push hard to trade Arenado and Gray. He seemed to feel that Gray had real trade value and the team option formed a pivot point to increase that value.

They will listen to offers on Donovan and Burleson but will need to be blown away.

Based on the interview a few days ago with Bloom, he is clearly focused on fixing the pitching holes in the organization. We obviously have holes in the OF. Maybe we get lucky and get a high draft pick this year that gives us a fast rising OF slugger. We can hope.

I am guessing Bloom makes 4-5 trades this offseason and there will be some surprises. If he can come out of the offseason with a good OF prospect and a SP prospect that has #2/#3 near ML ready potential, it should probably be considered a good offseason. I am guessing they will get several more back of the rotation/BP arms for a couple other pieces moved, including Arenado and Gray. Goold was more optimistic about the return for Gray. He seemed to think a #3 type SP prospect that was 2 years away was possible.

If they can come out of 2026 and have the needs down to 1 SP, 1 OF/MOTOB and 2 RP to be a playoff contender, in 2027 then 2026 was an overwhelming success.

It makes sense.

If the team were in a place where Walker and Gorman had realized what people thought their potential was and were 3, 4, 5 fWAR players and Liberatore was looking like a #2 SP, there would be an entirely different conversation about this team. If those things were true they'd be looking at adding instead of rebuilding right now.

Maybe Wetherholt is one of those young 3, 4, 5 fWAR players in a couple of years, and maybe Doyle is that young #1/#2 SP they need. So focusing on adding another SP prospect with #2/#3 potential and a position player prosect with 3, 4, 5 fWAR potential would help to fill in the gaps.

As it stands now, it’s not even that crazy of a rebuild.

It’s trimming fat from the mlb roster and continuing to add and nurture young players.

And I can’t see the trimming of the fat portion going into 2027…

I think perhaps the most important thing is to be willing to drop the actual MLB roster payroll to $80 or $90 million, but to send $40-$50 million, or more, in present year money with Gray, Arenado, Contreras, etc. as leverage to get better prospects back.

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 21:04 pm

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 14:31 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 11:20 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 08:25 am 1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑22 Oct 2025 00:01 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 22:20 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 17:38 pm

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

For like the millionth time, no one is saying that the Cardinals owners won't eventually have to spend the $170, $180, $190 million that they are capable of when the team is really ready to "win now."

But we know the Cardinals have to spend smartly if they are going to compete with teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Blue Jays, etc. who will have much higher payrolls.

And part of spending smartly is knowing WHEN to spend to give yourself the best chance of winning, not just spending blindly now (when they certainly are not ready to "win now") only to find themselves holding another Arenado-like, Mikolas-like, etc. contract that keeps them from adding a piece later when they are ready to "win now."

The problem with the Arenado trade is the team wasn't ready for it.

People may talk about the '21 and '22 seasons as successes, but they weren't. The outfield in both years was a mess. Both years, the team had to grab two starters at the deadline.

In the Bloom years, he will grab an Arenado. Difference is, the team will be more put together.

In 2021, O'Neill and Bader won Gold Gloves. And O'Neill finished in the top ten (8th), in NL MVP voting. That's far from a "mess" of an outfield.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 08:49 am Gray - sell - Eat some salary if necessary to maximized getting prospect value back from a team looking to contend in 2026.
Arenado - sell - Same
Contreras - sell - Same

Donovan - sell - At least shop him to sell what teams are willing to give. More valuable to a contender than to the Cardinals in 2026 (and probably 2027).
Pages/Crooks - sell - Shop one of the catchers with Bernal and Rodriguez coming.

Winn - hold - Offer a longer term extension to try to lock him up through age 30.
Burleson - hold - Needs to find a home at 1B if Contreras is moved. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (4 yrs./$18 million, $4.5M AAV).
Herrera - hold - May not find a position, but his bat is interesting enough as a DH to keep. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (5 yrs./$25 million, $5M AAV).

Nootbaar - hold - Coming off his worst ML season, it would probably be selling low to move him this offseason. Give him a chance to reestablish himself in 2026 before making a decision.
Walker - hold - Same
Gorman - hold- Same

alw80 wrote: ↑22 Oct 2025 05:51 am

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 21:04 pm

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 14:31 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 11:20 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 08:25 am 1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

They can't spend themselves out of the hole they dug, all that will do is dig them deeper down. Build up young talent and then spend around it. It might take a couple of years to pan out but if they would have done this four years ago we'd be in a lot better shape right now. Might be good for you to take a break from the team because its seems to really be stressing you out.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑22 Oct 2025 09:26 am

alw80 wrote: ↑22 Oct 2025 05:51 am

CCard wrote: ↑21 Oct 2025 16:41 pm

ecleme22 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 21:04 pm

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 14:31 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 11:20 am

CCard wrote: ↑20 Oct 2025 08:25 am 1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

There are so many factors in play and you simply can't do things that way. Maybe you get a good deal on a free agent this year but not next year. Maybe a guy you drafted is playing well and then goes off a cliff. Maybe he gets hurt. Maybe multiple players get hurt or are just sub par. How long you gonna go down that road of screwing your fans? You willing to suffer through 5 years just to get a sniff? How about a decade? Ask Pittsburgh, Cincy, Miami etc. This game is a game for top talent to showcase. AAA is for learning. AA is for learning. Here in the bigs is where the fans pay to see top talent play. Good drafting is great but it's no guarantee of success. You absolutely need top free agent talent. Not only does it play but young guys learn from the exposure.

You’ve been warped by watching Mozeliak the last decade.

No offense, but it’s kind of pathetic that Bloom has been on the job two minutes and the idea him trading SG and NA is putting you in a panic.

Can the org just rebuild for like 6 months without being labeled the pirates?

Jeez, dude.

You're just another idiot that believes in the sanctity of tanking. The virtue of the fans suffering for years on end so they can hope to develop "Cheap" talent. Spare me your suction of DeWitt and the billionaire cheapskate club. Prices for talent aren't ever going to go down, they will consistently rise as the grocery store prices (that was promised to lower) keep rising. Spend the (drat) money or sell the team. Enough with the "but we can't compete" drum beat. Year in and year out you draw 3 million and that's on top of all the other revenue streams. Go to the sink and wash that awful taste out of your mouth.

They can't spend themselves out of the hole they dug, all that will do is dig them deeper down. Build up young talent and then spend around it. It might take a couple of years to pan out but if they would have done this four years ago we'd be in a lot better shape right now. Might be good for you to take a break from the team because its seems to really be stressing you out.

Yeah, the point he never wants to acknowledge is that we're not preaching that they must develop a lot more young, cost controlled (i.e., "cheap") talent so that the owners can be "cheap" forevermore. We're preaching that they must develop their critical mass of young, cost controlled talent first so they know how to wisely spend the balance of their $170, $180, etc. million payroll in the future to maximize their ability to compete.