Oli Marmol and attendance

[dugoutrex]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

#2 on your list. I think the biggest factor is the TV deal. Cardinals used to be part of the basic package on Directv. Now it's an extra fee. Most casual fans will watch a few games but no pay extra when they have 100 channels to watch already. That's a big factor in loss of interest. For me and a few others the universal DH has caused me to stop watching.

Concerns of safety - that could be. I moved away from St Louis nearly 20 years ago to get away from the crime. I worked near the Enterprise Center and a lot of people don't realize how dangerous that area is.

lol - you sound like a kitty

p.s. - when I grew up and learned to love baseball MAYBE 20 games/year where on TV

Me too. And attendance was lousy.

I used to work traffic for the Blues games. Do you see kitties working traffic?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... misc.shtml

lol - not sure - did you get to wear a cute orange vest?

[woofy25]

They were talking on ESPN 101 last week about the causes of poor attendance even when the team was showing signs of life. They went through weather, lack of discretionary funds, lack of stars, etc. Towards the end of the discussion they brought up Marmol/Mo and felt that while fans may blame Mo, they said Oli wasn't the reason fans have soured on the team.

I could not disagree more with that thought. My enthusiasm level has dropped significantly during the Marmol era. Giving him the job in the first place was ridiculous but extending him after a horrible, losing season to me made this organization look like a non serious joke. When your team is lacking Stars having a big league level manager in the dugout at least gives the appearance of having an adult in charge.

Oli is a clown that should not have gotten the job and most certainly shouldn't have kept the job after his repeated fumblings. Step one and drawing fans back to the park is getting a known commodity in the dugout.

Fans would rather stay home b/c of Oli than watch their team play .600 baseball at home? Maybe it's starting to be the fans.

This is a stupid post. You can't ever blame a fan for lack of interest in a team. You blame an organization for losing that rabid interest and then failing to capture it back.

There have been many contributing factors, of which Oli is one, but not the only:
- Public pronouncement regarding a "reset", cutting spending/investment in on-field roster, letting big name players leave while only bringing in a FA reliever
- Lack of certainty whether this "600" ball club will be invested in for a playoff run this year, or dismantled at the deadline for investment in their future
- Lack of future direction/certainty regarding management: Mo is leaving, what does Bloom takeover look like? Who will be in charge on the field and in the FO?
- Oli inspires a lack of faith from the outside observer. Has been combative with the league and players, shown poor roster construction, and made numerous poor in game decisions (notably costing the team in the postseason)

I used to watch every game and coming out of COVID was very energized to see baseball again. These past three years (and quite frankly the past 15 years of decision post TLR) have systematically disinterested me. I now prefer to focus on my family, hobbies and work than sit down to watch a baseball game.

Stupid post? Ouchie. The Cardinals have been their own worst enemy, no doubt. But to say you can't ever blame the fans is non-sensical. Why are you so adamant about absolving them? Because you are one, I suppose. The problem is most of your points here are silly. There is plenty to criticize about the organization, but you, unfortunately, haven't made many coherent criticisms to explain why people shouldn't start going to games since the team is winning, and winning at a .600 clip at home.

- What big name players did the Cardinals let leave who you wanted to keep? Did you really want Goldschmidt back or something? Are you clamoring for the days of Jason Heyward or still bummed about not re-signing Pujols? Who are these big names?
-So, because you don't know what's going to happen at the trade deadline, you're not going to the ballpark? Nobody ever knows what's going to happen at the deadline. Should the stadium just be completely empty until August?
-And because you don't know what the team is going to look like next season, you're not going to games this season? You want Oli gone and Mo leaving increases the chances of that, but b/c you don't know who Oli's replacement might be in 2026, fans like yourself should stay home in 2025? Does that really make any sense to you?
-Oli doesn't construct the roster. How do you not know that? He has been combative in the past. Seems like there haven't been many player related issues this season like there have been in the past with O'Neill and Contreras. What Manager could the Cardinals hire that would inspire you to go to a game, and why does the manager have so much influence over your attendance in the first place?
-You've been so disinterested since 2012 that you actively post on an internet forum about the Cardinals in 2025. Yeah, you're apathy is glaring. BTW, they went to the playoffs in 8 of those 13 years, possibly 9 of 14.

Look, I've been a big critic of this organization recently. But, the fact is they're currently surprising most and are playing good baseball. Fans should start showing up because of it. You shouldn't go to a game or stay home b/c of the POBO or Manager. Go because the team is playing fundamentally sound baseball and winning games. They're not winning b/c of a couple superstars. They're winning because they play as a team. Maybe it falls apart, but it's currently working and fans should start going again. Quit the bellyaching about Mo. He's gone in 3 months.

How about you spend your discretionary income how you want to spend it, and shut the hell up about how others should spend their discretionary income?

Sensitive forum today. It's clearly not about spending money. Very recently, the Cardinals were routinely drawing 3M+, and many on this forum were part of that 3M. On the list of grievances and reasons why people aren't attending, I've noticed affordability is towards the bottom. And if people want to give their reasons why they won't attend games, I'm well within my right to suggest reasons why they should. If that offends you, and it clearly does, then maybe consider stepping off your self-righteous horse, stop creating an issue out of thin air.....and go to a game.

No high horse, you are the one saying people should go to games.

I never said anything about affordability. That was you.

Nobody needs to justify why they do or don’t go to games.

And certainly no fan that fails to attend games needs absolving by you even though according to you they are to blame for what? Failing to continue to enrich DeWitt & Friends?

Only one of us is on a high horse and it’s not me.

Ok, people can state why others shouldn't go to games, but other can't state why they should. Got it. And if they do, you're going to get all bent out of shape. I didn't tell any one person to spend a dime. It was a general statement that you took as a personal directive for some ridiculous reason. With the Cardinals putting a team on the field that is at least contending for a playoff spot and has played much better than last year's team, the stands should be fuller. Playing the card of not going to games b/c you don't want to "enrich DeWitt & Friends" is a self-defeating philosophy if you want to see the Cardinals improve and invest in the team.
It's clear that people like you don't really care whether or not the team is playing well. You decide to go or not go based on whether the Cardinals committed to some huge, backfiring contract that would have given you some fleeting dopamine hit when the announcement was made. Do you what you want. I don't care, but don't criticize the Cardinals lack of spending if you're not willing to support a team that is currently on pace for about 90 wins and a playoff berth, as shocking as it is.
And you did bring up affordability when you brought up discretionary income. Come on.

[Bad14]

They were talking on ESPN 101 last week about the causes of poor attendance even when the team was showing signs of life. They went through weather, lack of discretionary funds, lack of stars, etc. Towards the end of the discussion they brought up Marmol/Mo and felt that while fans may blame Mo, they said Oli wasn't the reason fans have soured on the team.

I could not disagree more with that thought. My enthusiasm level has dropped significantly during the Marmol era. Giving him the job in the first place was ridiculous but extending him after a horrible, losing season to me made this organization look like a non serious joke. When your team is lacking Stars having a big league level manager in the dugout at least gives the appearance of having an adult in charge.

Oli is a clown that should not have gotten the job and most certainly shouldn't have kept the job after his repeated fumblings. Step one and drawing fans back to the park is getting a known commodity in the dugout.

Fans would rather stay home b/c of Oli than watch their team play .600 baseball at home? Maybe it's starting to be the fans.

This is a stupid post. You can't ever blame a fan for lack of interest in a team. You blame an organization for losing that rabid interest and then failing to capture it back.

There have been many contributing factors, of which Oli is one, but not the only:
- Public pronouncement regarding a "reset", cutting spending/investment in on-field roster, letting big name players leave while only bringing in a FA reliever
- Lack of certainty whether this "600" ball club will be invested in for a playoff run this year, or dismantled at the deadline for investment in their future
- Lack of future direction/certainty regarding management: Mo is leaving, what does Bloom takeover look like? Who will be in charge on the field and in the FO?
- Oli inspires a lack of faith from the outside observer. Has been combative with the league and players, shown poor roster construction, and made numerous poor in game decisions (notably costing the team in the postseason)

I used to watch every game and coming out of COVID was very energized to see baseball again. These past three years (and quite frankly the past 15 years of decision post TLR) have systematically disinterested me. I now prefer to focus on my family, hobbies and work than sit down to watch a baseball game.

Stupid post? Ouchie. The Cardinals have been their own worst enemy, no doubt. But to say you can't ever blame the fans is non-sensical. Why are you so adamant about absolving them? Because you are one, I suppose. The problem is most of your points here are silly. There is plenty to criticize about the organization, but you, unfortunately, haven't made many coherent criticisms to explain why people shouldn't start going to games since the team is winning, and winning at a .600 clip at home.

- What big name players did the Cardinals let leave who you wanted to keep? Did you really want Goldschmidt back or something? Are you clamoring for the days of Jason Heyward or still bummed about not re-signing Pujols? Who are these big names?
-So, because you don't know what's going to happen at the trade deadline, you're not going to the ballpark? Nobody ever knows what's going to happen at the deadline. Should the stadium just be completely empty until August?
-And because you don't know what the team is going to look like next season, you're not going to games this season? You want Oli gone and Mo leaving increases the chances of that, but b/c you don't know who Oli's replacement might be in 2026, fans like yourself should stay home in 2025? Does that really make any sense to you?
-Oli doesn't construct the roster. How do you not know that? He has been combative in the past. Seems like there haven't been many player related issues this season like there have been in the past with O'Neill and Contreras. What Manager could the Cardinals hire that would inspire you to go to a game, and why does the manager have so much influence over your attendance in the first place?
-You've been so disinterested since 2012 that you actively post on an internet forum about the Cardinals in 2025. Yeah, you're apathy is glaring. BTW, they went to the playoffs in 8 of those 13 years, possibly 9 of 14.

Look, I've been a big critic of this organization recently. But, the fact is they're currently surprising most and are playing good baseball. Fans should start showing up because of it. You shouldn't go to a game or stay home b/c of the POBO or Manager. Go because the team is playing fundamentally sound baseball and winning games. They're not winning b/c of a couple superstars. They're winning because they play as a team. Maybe it falls apart, but it's currently working and fans should start going again. Quit the bellyaching about Mo. He's gone in 3 months.

How about you spend your discretionary income how you want to spend it, and shut the hell up about how others should spend their discretionary income?

Sensitive forum today. It's clearly not about spending money. Very recently, the Cardinals were routinely drawing 3M+, and many on this forum were part of that 3M. On the list of grievances and reasons why people aren't attending, I've noticed affordability is towards the bottom. And if people want to give their reasons why they won't attend games, I'm well within my right to suggest reasons why they should. If that offends you, and it clearly does, then maybe consider stepping off your self-righteous horse, stop creating an issue out of thin air.....and go to a game.

No high horse, you are the one saying people should go to games.

I never said anything about affordability. That was you.

Nobody needs to justify why they do or don’t go to games.

And certainly no fan that fails to attend games needs absolving by you even though according to you they are to blame for what? Failing to continue to enrich DeWitt & Friends?

Only one of us is on a high horse and it’s not me.

Ok, people can state why others shouldn't go to games, but other can't state why they should. Got it. And if they do, you're going to get all bent out of shape. I didn't tell any one person to spend a dime. It was a general statement that you took as a personal directive for some ridiculous reason. With the Cardinals putting a team on the field that is at least contending for a playoff spot and has played much better than last year's team, the stands should be fuller. Playing the card of not going to games b/c you don't want to "enrich DeWitt & Friends" is a self-defeating philosophy if you want to see the Cardinals improve and invest in the team.
It's clear that people like you don't really care whether or not the team is playing well. You decide to go or not go based on whether the Cardinals committed to some huge, backfiring contract that would have given you some fleeting dopamine hit when the announcement was made. Do you what you want. I don't care, but don't criticize the Cardinals lack of spending if you're not willing to support a team that is currently on pace for about 90 wins and a playoff berth, as shocking as it is.
And you did bring up affordability when you brought up discretionary income. Come on.

Just want to say "well said" before the attacks come

[JuanAgosto]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

#2 on your list. I think the biggest factor is the TV deal. Cardinals used to be part of the basic package on Directv. Now it's an extra fee. Most casual fans will watch a few games but no pay extra when they have 100 channels to watch already. That's a big factor in loss of interest. For me and a few others the universal DH has caused me to stop watching.

Concerns of safety - that could be. I moved away from St Louis nearly 20 years ago to get away from the crime. I worked near the Enterprise Center and a lot of people don't realize how dangerous that area is.

Yes, with streaming options offering so many viewing options, I know many that have drawn the line at paying an additional $20 to get access to Fanduel.

As for safety, contrary to what some think on here, crime is an issue. Its not necessarily that people are afraid of it. They just want to avoid it.

Having the games on tv keeps people interested. I no longer live in St Louis but crime downtown has always been an issue. Perhaps people are more aware now. Not far from the hockey area a gang burned down a 7 - eleven during the riots. Police caught the perps. Prosecutor released them and didn't charge. That same gang used to set up shop across from the Kiel in the park. 99% of people going to the games and concerts had no idea. Best to be with a crowd for safety reasons.

Meow

Thanks for the input.

[George Zipp]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

Add the carryover effect from Covid. People got used to staying home and watching things on TV or their computervthat they used to go to in person.

Yep. Most every household has a huge tv with food and beer way cheaper than the stadium.

I love going to games, but man it is an event. Work all day, get family of 4 all ready and down to the game in a full rush, pay $20+ to park, pay easily $100+ if the 4 of us eat/drink anything at the game, cost of tickets, get home after 10pm, get up for work at 6am.

I honestly don't care about the money as much as I do about just the general "not relaxing at all" feeling I have going to a weekday game. We still get to a couple games each year, but I sure do prefer just catching the game on my nice comfy couch with my own food and beers

This one drives me batty. Nobody is forcing you to pay 20 bucks plus to park. There is so much free parking within walking distance of the stadium. I advise anyone and everyone to play the meter game. Find a meter. Most of them don't have to be fed after 7. So either put a couple of bucks in or don't. The City may give you the impression that they meter maid these events. They don't. They don't have the resources. They may go on a binge 1/2x a year. I always park at meters, sometimes I park in illegal spots (not in front of a bus stop or hydrant, just the yellow line) and I never get tickets.

And nobody is forcing you to pay 100 bucks plus for food. Gonna let you in on a secret that I've mentioned many times on this board. The Cards are one of the only professional teams in all of sports that allows you to bring your own food and drink in, with the exception of alcohol, and glass bottles. You can go to Schnucks, Dierbergs, Trader Joes, The Gramaphone, Lona's, whatever you like, and get yourself plenty of value of food for 1/4th the price of ballpark food, and it's better. On days like today you can bring your own bottled water in. Sure the allure of a ballpark hot dog and ice cold beer is cool and all, but not for 27 bucks.

Now the home after 10, up before 6, can't argue with that and it's an issue for me as well.

[desertrat23]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

Add the carryover effect from Covid. People got used to staying home and watching things on TV or their computervthat they used to go to in person.

Yep. Most every household has a huge tv with food and beer way cheaper than the stadium.

I love going to games, but man it is an event. Work all day, get family of 4 all ready and down to the game in a full rush, pay $20+ to park, pay easily $100+ if the 4 of us eat/drink anything at the game, cost of tickets, get home after 10pm, get up for work at 6am.

I honestly don't care about the money as much as I do about just the general "not relaxing at all" feeling I have going to a weekday game. We still get to a couple games each year, but I sure do prefer just catching the game on my nice comfy couch with my own food and beers

This one drives me batty. Nobody is forcing you to pay 20 bucks plus to park. There is so much free parking within walking distance of the stadium. I advise anyone and everyone to play the meter game. Find a meter. Most of them don't have to be fed after 7. So either put a couple of bucks in or don't. The City may give you the impression that they meter maid these events. They don't. They don't have the resources. They may go on a binge 1/2x a year. I always park at meters, sometimes I park in illegal spots (not in front of a bus stop or hydrant, just the yellow line) and I never get tickets.

And nobody is forcing you to pay 100 bucks plus for food. Gonna let you in on a secret that I've mentioned many times on this board. The Cards are one of the only professional teams in all of sports that allows you to bring your own food and drink in, with the exception of alcohol, and glass bottles. You can go to Schnucks, Dierbergs, Trader Joes, The Gramaphone, Lona's, whatever you like, and get yourself plenty of value of food for 1/4th the price of ballpark food, and it's better. On days like today you can bring your own bottled water in. Sure the allure of a ballpark hot dog and ice cold beer is cool and all, but not for 27 bucks.

Now the home after 10, up before 6, can't argue with that and it's an issue for me as well.

Don't you understand? From reading this thread, I've learned that if you even think about going downtown you will be instantly robbed, beaten, and/or killed, not necessarily in that order. And you want people to hunt for meters?

[dugoutrex]

rural Missouri is even worse than downtown - my FIL recently died and the family had to truck out to Houston Missouri to clean out the house immediately because apparently the house would have been completely ransacked once word of his death got out

[ScotchMIrish]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

#2 on your list. I think the biggest factor is the TV deal. Cardinals used to be part of the basic package on Directv. Now it's an extra fee. Most casual fans will watch a few games but no pay extra when they have 100 channels to watch already. That's a big factor in loss of interest. For me and a few others the universal DH has caused me to stop watching.

Concerns of safety - that could be. I moved away from St Louis nearly 20 years ago to get away from the crime. I worked near the Enterprise Center and a lot of people don't realize how dangerous that area is.

lol - you sound like a kitty

p.s. - when I grew up and learned to love baseball MAYBE 20 games/year where on TV

Me too. And attendance was lousy.

I used to work traffic for the Blues games. Do you see kitties working traffic?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... misc.shtml

lol - not sure - did you get to wear a cute orange vest?

9mm Baretta. Orange raincoat but I didn't like it because can't get to the Baretta in time if you need it.

Any other questions just ask. Was always glad when the Blues got eliminated so we didn't have to work traffic.

[dugoutrex]

we had the little orange vests at work - we called it a 'duddy'

[iowa blues fan]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

I would agree with this along with the fact that you can so easily watch the game from home and avoid several of the points you brought up.

[-ocaj]

Baseball popularity has peaked in this town and I don't see it coming back. The organization did a great job pricing out the casual TV viewer over the past 20 years that the young generations have zero interest. Couple that with the St. Louis tribalism contributing to this region losing importance in the coming years? The Cardinals will be in Nashville before 2040. The knot-hole gang farts will all be pushing up daisies by then so no one will really care.

[JuanAgosto]

While I'm not a fan of Marmol, I don't think he's a major reason for the drop in attendance. I think it's a combination of things including:

1. Cost
2. Loss of baseball's popularity.
3. Concerns of safety at night in StL.
4. Apathy towards BDW and Mo.

Marmol may come in 5th in the equation.

I would agree with this along with the fact that you can so easily watch the game from home and avoid several of the points you brought up.

Exactly. And change the channel if the game is (bleep).