Anyone disappointed in Broberg thus far?

[callitwhatyouwant]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

First off, Pronger should not be compared to either Petro or Broberg. Pronger was the best player in the league, and one of the best defenders to ever do it. Neither of these two have come close. Petro had 1 season where he was in that top 5 category. 1.

2nd, Pronger was averaging 30 minutes a game early on in his career with the Blues, and then settled in around 27. He didn't start dropping below the 27 mark minus 1 year until he got to the flyers. Defense was different back then. The game was played at a different pace because of the 2 line pass rules and such. You have to play at break neck speeds now to stay out there all the time which is going to take peoples numbers down organically. Al was at 26 during those years. You also had OT hockey in regular season. Buffed numbers.

Petro has had 1 year when he was at 26 minute and that was 15-16. If we are going to make comparisons, can we stop lying when doing it?

Broberg is not a number 1 yet. And out of those 3, the only 1 that was really an anchor number 1 early out of the gate was Pronger. I don't think anyone expects players to be a number one until their mid to late 20s. Guys like Heiskenan are hard to come by. They are anomalies. And Makar and Hughes are touted because they are very good defenders who are ALL TIME offensive players. Petro was neither of those. Broberg likely will be neither. And Pronger was ALL TIME defender with ELITE offensive skill.


Quick Edit : If you want to cherry pick playoff games as metrics, try not to cherry pick series where Petro's team gets bounced in 6 games and it has the 3 OT game and a series that consists of 4 OT games. LAUGHING

[seattleblue]

Pietrangelo was playing 26-30 mins some nights in playoffs at Broberg’s age. He’s a HOFer.

He's a clear HOFer in my book. (Reminds me of my three reactions to our backup's play: HOFer, OOFer, and "Just Joel")
BUT if we were playing devil's advocate against his candidacy we'd compare him to maybe Eli Manning not getting in on first ballot?
Again I would put him in because the knock on him is that hockey writers who in real time prized one-way, defense free defensemen like Karlsson didn't appreciate him with Norris votes, but lots of films that are considered masterpieces were overlooked a bit in real time too. The actual physical reality of the silver Cup in hand matters more than flawed consensus voting. Ultimately that he led two different franchises in ice time each to their first Cup is a hockey achievement I have never seen matched. His career was more like Niedermayer who became more appreciated for his entire body of work.

[seattleblue]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

First off, Pronger should not be compared to either Petro or Broberg. Pronger was the best player in the league, and one of the best defenders to ever do it. Neither of these two have come close. Petro had 1 season where he was in that top 5 category. 1.

2nd, Pronger was averaging 30 minutes a game early on in his career with the Blues, and then settled in around 27. He didn't start dropping below the 27 mark minus 1 year until he got to the flyers. Defense was different back then. The game was played at a different pace because of the 2 line pass rules and such. You have to play at break neck speeds now to stay out there all the time which is going to take peoples numbers down organically. Al was at 26 during those years.

Petro has had 1 year when he was at 26 minute and that was 15-16. If we are going to make comparisons, can we stop lying when doing it?

Broberg is not a number 1 yet. And out of those 3, the only 1 that was really an anchor number 1 early out of the gate was Pronger. I don't think anyone expects players to be a number one until their mid to late 20s. Guys like Heiskenan are hard to come by. They are anomalies. And Makar and Hughes are touted because they are very good defenders who are ALL TIME offensive players. Petro was neither of those. Broberg likely will be neither. And Pronger was ALL TIME defender with ELITE offensive skill.

I can't figure out if you're agreeing with me saying Pronger wasn't just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen, or calling me out for saying that?

(I have worn a Pronger jersey to multiple San Jose Shark/Blues playoff games and gotten real hate for it. Sharks fans are bottom of the shoe though)

[theograce]

Pietrangelo was playing 26-30 mins some nights in playoffs at Broberg’s age. He’s a HOFer.

He's a clear HOFer in my book. (Reminds me of my three reactions to our backup's play: HOFer, OOFer, and "Just Joel")
BUT if we were playing devil's advocate against his candidacy we'd compare him to maybe Eli Manning not getting in on first ballot?
Again I would put him in because the knock on him is that hockey writers who in real time prized one-way, defense free defensemen like Karlsson didn't appreciate him with Norris votes, but lots of films that are considered masterpieces were overlooked a bit in real time too. The actual physical reality of the silver Cup in hand matters more than flawed consensus voting. Ultimately that he led two different franchises in ice time each to their first Cup is a hockey achievement I have never seen matched. His career was more like Niedermayer who became more appreciated for his entire body of work.

His numbers alone get him in. He has more even strength assists in the playoffs than Lidstrom in far fewer games. He controls games at ES. He blocks as many shots as anyone ever. Plus all that winning. WJ’s, Olympics, 2 franchises to their first championships. Durability test. Aging well test. Leadership test. All of it…incredible career.

[DawgDad]

Pietrangelo was playing 26-30 mins some nights in playoffs at Broberg’s age. He’s a HOFer.

He's a clear HOFer in my book. (Reminds me of my three reactions to our backup's play: HOFer, OOFer, and "Just Joel")
BUT if we were playing devil's advocate against his candidacy we'd compare him to maybe Eli Manning not getting in on first ballot?
Again I would put him in because the knock on him is that hockey writers who in real time prized one-way, defense free defensemen like Karlsson didn't appreciate him with Norris votes, but lots of films that are considered masterpieces were overlooked a bit in real time too. The actual physical reality of the silver Cup in hand matters more than flawed consensus voting. Ultimately that he led two different franchises in ice time each to their first Cup is a hockey achievement I have never seen matched. His career was more like Niedermayer who became more appreciated for his entire body of work.

His numbers alone get him in. He has more even strength assists in the playoffs than Lidstrom in far fewer games. He controls games at ES. He blocks as many shots as anyone ever. Plus all that winning. WJ’s, Olympics, 2 franchises to their first championships. Durability test. Aging well test. Leadership test. All of it…incredible career.

His blindside takedown move last night looked HHOF worthy.

[Harry S Deals]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.

Uh huh, lets wait and see next season. Unfortunately Broberg doesnt have the luxury of Shatty or Jaybo to be paired with at 23. And why Monty chooses to play Faulk over Broberg on the PP (thus the difference in ATOI) when Broberg is clearly more dynamic and Faulk is well, a turd is beyond me.

[seattleblue]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.

Uh huh, lets wait and see next season. Unfortunately Broberg doesnt have the luxury of Shatty or Jaybo to be paired with at 23. And why Monty chooses to play Faulk over Broberg on the PP (thus the difference in ATOI) when Broberg is clearly more dynamic and Faulk is well, a turd is beyond me.

"Let's wait until next season" in no way changes the truth that he falls far short of being a #1 right now which is what I said. Wait, do you really think he is a #1 defenseman right now?

[Harry S Deals]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.

Uh huh, lets wait and see next season. Unfortunately Broberg doesnt have the luxury of Shatty or Jaybo to be paired with at 23. And why Monty chooses to play Faulk over Broberg on the PP (thus the difference in ATOI) when Broberg is clearly more dynamic and Faulk is well, a turd is beyond me.

"Let's wait until next season" in no way changes the truth that he falls far short of being a #1 right now which is what I said. Wait, do you really think he is a #1 defenseman right now?

Right, "right now" we agree I said FUTURE, as this is his first FULL NHL season and it has been very impressive.

68
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20:30


Athough i think he can certainly be paired with Parayko right now

For 2019 drafted Dmen this season:

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)
Broberg is 7th TOI/GP 20:47 (no PP)
Broberg is 6th with 29 pts (only 68 GP, no PP)
Broberg is tied for 3rd in EVP 35

Yes I think i Broberg is the Blues future #1 LHD without question. Whether its at some point next year which is my gut or after Fowler retires remains to be seen.

"He could grow to become a top-pairing player at the NHL level, with the ability to play big minutes and on both the power play and penalty killing unit."

[larueskee]

Oh heck no. The guy is playing just under 19 minutes in his 2 playoff games and is plus 1. He is going to continue to improve and hopefully a Blue for a long time.

[seattleblue]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.

Uh huh, lets wait and see next season. Unfortunately Broberg doesnt have the luxury of Shatty or Jaybo to be paired with at 23. And why Monty chooses to play Faulk over Broberg on the PP (thus the difference in ATOI) when Broberg is clearly more dynamic and Faulk is well, a turd is beyond me.

"Let's wait until next season" in no way changes the truth that he falls far short of being a #1 right now which is what I said. Wait, do you really think he is a #1 defenseman right now?

Right, "right now" we agree I said FUTURE, as this is his first FULL NHL season and it has been very impressive.

68
8
21
29
+21
16
0
2
0
0
20:30


Athough i think he can certainly be paired with Parayko right now

For 2019 drafted Dmen this season:

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)
Broberg is 7th TOI/GP 20:47 (no PP)
Broberg is 6th with 29 pts (only 68 GP, no PP)
Broberg is tied for 3rd in EVP 35

Yes I think i Broberg is the Blues future #1 LHD without question. Whether its at some point next year which is my gut or after Fowler retires remains to be seen.

"He could grow to become a top-pairing player at the NHL level, with the ability to play big minutes and on both the power play and penalty killing unit."

Got it, I think the only thing we disagree on here is that he is a lock to be a future #1. You say without question but for me in reality I have some questions, because he's behind schedule with his age/impact as previously noted. I am totally down for the enthusiasm for him to improve year over year til he gives the Blues #1 minutes. I am very confident about other projected prospects so I get it.

[theograce]

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)

Dunn was +29 in 2 seasons when he was younger than Broberg.

Dunn put up 12 goals when he was 22.

Shattenkirk had 9 goals +20 when he was 23.

Faulk had 15 goals 49 points at age 22

Watch players play the game. Understand the situations they are in … who they are matched up against etc

[theograce]

I really wish in hindsight the Blues kept Mikkola. Pretty stable guy right now and love his size/stick.

[Harry S Deals]

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)

Dunn was +29 in 2 seasons when he was younger than Broberg.

Dunn put up 12 goals when he was 22.

Shattenkirk had 9 goals +20 when he was 23.

Faulk had 15 goals 49 points at age 22

Watch players play the game. Understand the situations they are in … who they are matched up against etc

Nope, Broberg was injured unfortunately and lost some time and the Oilers admittedly didnt handle his development well thus his 149 GP, FIRST FULL SEASON where as you can see he stacks up very very well vs dmen in his draft class, given fewer games than most

[Harry S Deals]

Pronger was not just a #1 defenseman but one of the best the game has ever seen.
Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.
You can project confidence that he's going to be but it's speculation, it could go plenty of ways.
When Pronger was Broberg's current age it was 97-98 and Pronger was averaging 25 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was Broberg's current age he was averaging over 26 min a game.
When Pietrangelo was in his first full year 09-10 he was at 22 min a game.
Broberg is still a really good young defenseman who I'm glad we have. He's around 20 min on avg.

Broberg is not a #1 defenseman. If you expect him to be then yes you'd have to acknowledge he falls far far short of being a #1 right now.

Uh huh, lets wait and see next season. Unfortunately Broberg doesnt have the luxury of Shatty or Jaybo to be paired with at 23. And why Monty chooses to play Faulk over Broberg on the PP (thus the difference in ATOI) when Broberg is clearly more dynamic and Faulk is well, a turd is beyond me.

"Let's wait until next season" in no way changes the truth that he falls far short of being a #1 right now which is what I said. Wait, do you really think he is a #1 defenseman right now?

Right, "right now" we agree I said FUTURE, as this is his first FULL NHL season and it has been very impressive.

68
8
21
29
+21
16
0
2
0
0
20:30


Athough i think he can certainly be paired with Parayko right now

For 2019 drafted Dmen this season:

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)
Broberg is 7th TOI/GP 20:47 (no PP)
Broberg is 6th with 29 pts (only 68 GP, no PP)
Broberg is tied for 3rd in EVP 35

Yes I think i Broberg is the Blues future #1 LHD without question. Whether its at some point next year which is my gut or after Fowler retires remains to be seen.

"He could grow to become a top-pairing player at the NHL level, with the ability to play big minutes and on both the power play and penalty killing unit."

Got it, I think the only thing we disagree on here is that he is a lock to be a future #1. You say without question but for me in reality I have some questions, because he's behind schedule with his age/impact as previously noted. I am totally down for the enthusiasm for him to improve year over year til he gives the Blues #1 minutes. I am very confident about other projected prospects so I get it.

Yep we can agree to disagree and look the incoming Blues d prospects (Lindstein, Jiricek, Burns, Ralph, etc) could be an embarrassment of riches so we are debating about a good scenario.
I am going to bank on the Blues and Glen Wesley and others will help the kid starting this summer to develop correctly vs wedging him in as a RHD, etc and we will see a bump

[theograce]

Broberg is 3rd +21
Broberg tied 3rd with 8 goals (only 68 GP)

Dunn was +29 in 2 seasons when he was younger than Broberg.

Dunn put up 12 goals when he was 22.

Shattenkirk had 9 goals +20 when he was 23.

Faulk had 15 goals 49 points at age 22

Watch players play the game. Understand the situations they are in … who they are matched up against etc

Nope, Broberg was injured unfortunately and lost some time and the Oilers admittedly didnt handle his development well thus his 149 GP, FIRST FULL SEASON where as you can see he stacks up very very well vs dmen in his draft class, given fewer games than most

Nope what? Could have said the same about Dunn, Faulk and shattenkirk.

You can clearly watch Broberg play and see the holes/defciencies. Needs a ton of work away from the puck, reads, outlet passes, strength/conditioning etc. these are the same things many others see/comment on.

[seattleblue]

I really wish in hindsight the Blues kept Mikkola. Pretty stable guy right now and love his size/stick.

I'll say it again, Lukas Fischer. He scored 15 goals in the OHL this year which was fifth among defensemen. (Parekh, Dickinson, Aitcheson, Marelli had more). His dad is Detroit's director of player evaluation. NHL career cut short by JBo like health emergency. I bet they discuss some things.