To reiterate where the Cardinals are going...

[Bushiro]

from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

And I think that is the biggest question going foward....let's assume we're heading into the off-season for the upcoming 28 season....Bloom has a put together a pretty good young core that just won say 83 to 85 games in 2027.....will he now be given the 170 to 180 million dollar payroll... to aquire a few big names to make them a legit contender...or will they continue to operate with a smaller payroll going further....

[mattmitchl44]

from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

And I think that is the biggest question going foward....let's assume we're heading into the off-season for the upcoming 28 season....Bloom has a put together a pretty good young core that just won say 83 to 85 games in 2027.....will he now be given the 170 to 180 million dollar payroll... to aquire a few big names to make them a legit contender...or will they continue to operate with a smaller payroll going further....

We can consider that to be an open question that no one will know the answer to until they get there.

But let's focus on them getting there first before worrying about the answer to it.

[Bushiro]

from 2015-2025, but not counting the shortened 2020 season:

Cleveland has averaged 89 wins on an average payroll of $97 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Milwaukee has averaged 88 wins on an average payroll of $101 million. They made the playoffs six times.

Tampa Bay has averaged 86 wins on an average payroll of $75 million. They made the playoffs four times.

The Cardinals also averaged 86 wins, but on an average payroll of $155 million and made the playoffs four times.

So, if the Cardinals can get their organization in shape like Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay AND outspend them by 50+%, they should have considerable success going forward. That's the goal.

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

And I think that is the biggest question going foward....let's assume we're heading into the off-season for the upcoming 28 season....Bloom has a put together a pretty good young core that just won say 83 to 85 games in 2027.....will he now be given the 170 to 180 million dollar payroll... to aquire a few big names to make them a legit contender...or will they continue to operate with a smaller payroll going further....

We can consider that to be an open question that no one will know the answer to until they get there.

But let's focus on them getting there first before worrying about the answer to it.

I get that ...but like we mentioned before with the cubs...once they established that young core...they then went out and brought in Lester....then zobrist the following year I believe....so yeah nobody knows but it's interesting to see if this will be the cards new business model going foward....will they operate like the teams mentioned above and spend like them also....

[Goldfan]

I just don't have optimism around the whole spending thing. Where is the revenue coming from?

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Why is it so, so, so hard for you to understand a simple concept:

- Emulate what Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay do with their player development systems, but then improve on that by being able to spend more on the ML payroll than they can.

To compete consistently, the Cardinals absolutely need to have a Top 5 player development system, and they will need for it to have had some "bite" at the ML level - delivering Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. for a couple of seasons - before they are ready to compete again.

Only AFTER that has happened do we even need to start worrying about exactly what new ML payroll level the team will settle out at in 2028, 2029, etc. But I fully expect that level to be considerably higher than Cleveland's $100 million from 2025, or Milwaukee's $108 million.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that both tracks can be taken at once.
Fix the player Dev/draft
And
Put a competitive winning team on field. As I’ve stated MANY times the last couple days whatever bodies returned in these trades are NOT going to suddenly fix the Player Dev side
BUT spending the 80 mil or so that has disappeared in payroll definitely would put a competitive winning team on the field. And doing so wouldn’t stop ALL this great talent you anticipate being ready in 2,3,4 yrs
So why doesn’t your head allow you to process this? The only thing stopping it is BDW spending $$.
And I’ve never stated to KEEP Gray, Miles, Matz, Helsley, Fedde, WC, NA……I stated to take that 80-90mil and go find some productive winning players
Why must payroll be gutted to fix the minors OTHER than BDW doesn’t want to spend and has created this opportunity to fool people like you that him not spending fixes Player Dev and drafting.
80-90 mil Will buy 2 productive Bats and 2 SP, if those are still needed with the recent acquisitions.
So please tell me how that stops Bloom from doing Everything you say he must do???
The only impediment is BDW spending and if you want to excuse his cheapness peddling your thesis I hope he’s got a check in the mail with your name on it.

[sikeston bulldog2]

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Why is it so, so, so hard for you to understand a simple concept:

- Emulate what Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay do with their player development systems, but then improve on that by being able to spend more on the ML payroll than they can.

To compete consistently, the Cardinals absolutely need to have a Top 5 player development system, and they will need for it to have had some "bite" at the ML level - delivering Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. for a couple of seasons - before they are ready to compete again.

Only AFTER that has happened do we even need to start worrying about exactly what new ML payroll level the team will settle out at in 2028, 2029, etc. But I fully expect that level to be considerably higher than Cleveland's $100 million from 2025, or Milwaukee's $108 million.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that both tracks can be taken at once.
Fix the player Dev/draft
And
Put a competitive winning team on field. As I’ve stated MANY times the last couple days whatever bodies returned in these trades are NOT going to suddenly fix the Player Dev side
BUT spending the 80 mil or so that has disappeared in payroll definitely would put a competitive winning team on the field. And doing so wouldn’t stop ALL this great talent you anticipate being ready in 2,3,4 yrs
So why doesn’t your head allow you to process this? The only thing stopping it is BDW spending $$.
And I’ve never stated to KEEP Gray, Miles, Matz, Helsley, Fedde, WC, NA……I stated to take that 80-90mil and go find some productive winning players
Why must payroll be gutted to fix the minors OTHER than BDW doesn’t want to spend and has created this opportunity to fool people like you that him not spending fixes Player Dev and drafting.
80-90 mil Will buy 2 productive Bats and 2 SP, if those are still needed with the recent acquisitions.
So please tell me how that stops Bloom from doing Everything you say he must do???
The only impediment is BDW spending and if you want to excuse his cheapness peddling your thesis I hope he’s got a check in the mail with your name on it.

As you age, you become a bit more anxious and paranoid about losing things you’ve gained.

I’m thinking at his age, he is well encapsulated into maintaining to status quo for his families future.

More than likely, to regain our stature and gain the level you want, it’s gonna take a sale. And that’s a whole nother issue.

[mattmitchl44]

The Cardinals will rebuild the organization, spend what they can/will, start winning 88+ games again, attendance will come back up to 3+ million, and then spending will then find whatever level it is going to balance out at.

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Why is it so, so, so hard for you to understand a simple concept:

- Emulate what Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay do with their player development systems, but then improve on that by being able to spend more on the ML payroll than they can.

To compete consistently, the Cardinals absolutely need to have a Top 5 player development system, and they will need for it to have had some "bite" at the ML level - delivering Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. for a couple of seasons - before they are ready to compete again.

Only AFTER that has happened do we even need to start worrying about exactly what new ML payroll level the team will settle out at in 2028, 2029, etc. But I fully expect that level to be considerably higher than Cleveland's $100 million from 2025, or Milwaukee's $108 million.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that both tracks can be taken at once.
Fix the player Dev/draft
And
Put a competitive winning team on field. As I’ve stated MANY times the last couple days whatever bodies returned in these trades are NOT going to suddenly fix the Player Dev side
BUT spending the 80 mil or so that has disappeared in payroll definitely would put a competitive winning team on the field. And doing so wouldn’t stop ALL this great talent you anticipate being ready in 2,3,4 yrs
So why doesn’t your head allow you to process this? The only thing stopping it is BDW spending $$.
And I’ve never stated to KEEP Gray, Miles, Matz, Helsley, Fedde, WC, NA……I stated to take that 80-90mil and go find some productive winning players
Why must payroll be gutted to fix the minors OTHER than BDW doesn’t want to spend and has created this opportunity to fool people like you that him not spending fixes Player Dev and drafting.
80-90 mil Will buy 2 productive Bats and 2 SP, if those are still needed with the recent acquisitions.
So please tell me how that stops Bloom from doing Everything you say he must do???
The only impediment is BDW spending and if you want to excuse his cheapness peddling your thesis I hope he’s got a check in the mail with your name on it.

I disagree. They aren't getting to being a truly competitive team from where they are by spending another $80 million.

Spending $80-$90 million from where they will be after subtracting Gray, Contreras, Arenado, Donovan, Helsley, Mikolas, Matz, Maton, Fedde, etc. only gets them back to mediocre. It gets them back to where they have been - an 85, 86, maybe 87 win team that wants to just sneak into the playoffs and hope for the best.

And the ultimate problem is spending $25 million in 2026 on another SP, $25 million in 2026 on another bat, etc. won't just be spending $25 million in 2026. It will be signing a SP for 5 yrs./$125 million or a bat for 6 yrs./$150 million. And, in a few years, when the rest of the roster IS ready to compete again, those contracts will likely be "underwater" - another Nolan Arenado - that keeps them from putting a better team on the field in 2028, 2029, etc.

[CorneliusWolfe]

This is great news. All we have to do is lower payroll and WE ARE IN!!!!

No world series titles though...we must be JUST LIKE TB, Cleveland and Milwaukee!!

[Goldfan]

I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.

IF you hypothesize that the Cardinals will spend closer to the level of Milwaukee/Cleveland, then it is just MORE IMPORTANT that they rebuild the player development system if they are ever going to compete again.

I’ve said that their player development system is a mess for years. There’s no argument to made against that being corrected.

I’m saying that this idea that they’ll spend again when the timing is right is based on hope and not rooted in reality.

Matt doesn't seem to grasp this very real possibility

Used the same argument several weeks ago and we're still here.

It could be a possibility but that doesn't mean this rebuild shouldn't happen. The spending would be based on if they were winning and drawing the fan support. Also a new lucrative TV deal would help. They never spent big as it was but the money they will spend will go a lot further if they have an abundance of cost controlled talent.

I dislike even calling it a "rebuild". It's not that - they're resetting their model in real-time. They've said this over and over. Bloom has reiterated that.

If they spend like Matt fantasizes and you admire……they will become a AAAA feeder club for the teams who really care to win

What do you mean by “that I admire”?

Do you just say things to sound inanely stupid?

I’m sorry AOF, when someone writes the first sentence below, it would seem that you ADMIRE what this brain trust BUILT in other cities
If thats a wrong assumption on my part many apologies…… it would seem to imply the BRAIN TRUST….BUILT something….and now they’re HERE BUILDING the same thing and YOU think THEY can do IT….thus ADMIRING

“I think this new brain trust can build what they have done in those other cities. I just expect them to also spend kind of like those cities absent some unforeseen revenue opportunity.”

Why is it so, so, so hard for you to understand a simple concept:

- Emulate what Milwaukee, Cleveland, Tampa Bay do with their player development systems, but then improve on that by being able to spend more on the ML payroll than they can.

To compete consistently, the Cardinals absolutely need to have a Top 5 player development system, and they will need for it to have had some "bite" at the ML level - delivering Wetherholt, Doyle, Mathews, etc. for a couple of seasons - before they are ready to compete again.

Only AFTER that has happened do we even need to start worrying about exactly what new ML payroll level the team will settle out at in 2028, 2029, etc. But I fully expect that level to be considerably higher than Cleveland's $100 million from 2025, or Milwaukee's $108 million.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that both tracks can be taken at once.
Fix the player Dev/draft
And
Put a competitive winning team on field. As I’ve stated MANY times the last couple days whatever bodies returned in these trades are NOT going to suddenly fix the Player Dev side
BUT spending the 80 mil or so that has disappeared in payroll definitely would put a competitive winning team on the field. And doing so wouldn’t stop ALL this great talent you anticipate being ready in 2,3,4 yrs
So why doesn’t your head allow you to process this? The only thing stopping it is BDW spending $$.
And I’ve never stated to KEEP Gray, Miles, Matz, Helsley, Fedde, WC, NA……I stated to take that 80-90mil and go find some productive winning players
Why must payroll be gutted to fix the minors OTHER than BDW doesn’t want to spend and has created this opportunity to fool people like you that him not spending fixes Player Dev and drafting.
80-90 mil Will buy 2 productive Bats and 2 SP, if those are still needed with the recent acquisitions.
So please tell me how that stops Bloom from doing Everything you say he must do???
The only impediment is BDW spending and if you want to excuse his cheapness peddling your thesis I hope he’s got a check in the mail with your name on it.

I disagree. They aren't getting to being a truly competitive team from where they are by spending another $80 million.

Spending $80-$90 million from where they will be after subtracting Gray, Contreras, Arenado, Donovan, Helsley, Mikolas, Matz, Maton, Fedde, etc. only gets them back to mediocre. It gets them back to where they have been - an 85, 86, maybe 87 win team that wants to just sneak into the playoffs and hope for the best.

And the ultimate problem is spending $25 million in 2026 on another SP, $25 million in 2026 on another bat, etc. won't just be spending $25 million in 2026. It will be signing a SP for 5 yrs./$125 million or a bat for 6 yrs./$150 million. And, in a few years, when the rest of the roster IS ready to compete again, those contracts will likely be "underwater" - another Nolan Arenado - that keeps them from putting a better team on the field in 2028, 2029, etc.

Gray and WC are Good not great
Donny is solid
But
Miles, Matz, NA, Fedde SUCK, were a negative. If Bloom can’t find REAL productive players for 40-50 mil….come on man

[Clubmaker2]

Going in circles. They needed a number two pitcher and outfield bat. They just waited out three pitchers off the books to FA / deadline trade. But now the plan is to wait longer. I'n 18 months they will need a number two pitcher and an outfield bat. The sales pitch is they will have these extra so so minor league pitchers that project as mid relievers....which is what...a 3- 4 mil job on the fa market.. Posts about getting one year players and flip this deadline....didn't all the minor leaguers from a flip two years ago already exit the org? Going in a circle. Mo just issued too many bad contracts primarily with lousy pitching draft development second.