STLtoday.com

The rebuild has barely even begun.

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:43 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:40 am

AnExParrot wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:38 am Why do you/would you think this is a single year endeavor?

I believe this to be true.

You think this may be a one season only rebuild?
They will continue to rebuild until they don't stink.
Then they'll claim victory.

I'm sure you have heard the old line about why the Indian rain dance always worked. Because they kept dancing until it rained.

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:11 am

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:06 am My opinion- the rebuild is not essentially complete. I look for more upheaval this offseason. I look for us to sell and not buy at the deadline, no matter what the record is. Next offseason, I see more incremental tweaks, but not nearly to the extent of this offseason. I fully expect them earn a playoff spot in 2027 and improve from there.

That was my expectation as well, but I am not so sure anymore.
I could see Arenado being dealt.
Will any others be gone?
Even Donovan can fill many roles on this team, so they may just keep him.
Try to compete in 2026.

We have tried to compete with a half-[ashed] roster for 3 years.

Determining how long the rebuild will take is mostly dependent on how starting pitching develops.

There's a decent - not great, but decent - core of position players in Herrera, Burleson, Winn, etc that you can build around, but the pitching is a complete mystery at this point. Wetherholt looks like the real deal, but he's not a middle of the order, 25+ home run player; he's more of a Dustin Pedroia type. You need at least one impact bat that drives in runs and hits for power, but you can buy that player if you absolutely need to.

But it's the pitching. Liberatore took good steps forward last year but still pitched like a number 4 starter. After that, it's a complete mystery. If a few guys step up this year, the Cardinals could be back in contention within a year or two; if the upper-minors pitchers falter, and you need to wait for the next wave to see what you have, the rebuild's going to take much longer, more in the 3-5 year range.

Rebuild:
Need a player to build team around.
Who is that player?

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:46 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:43 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:40 am

AnExParrot wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:38 am Why do you/would you think this is a single year endeavor?

I believe this to be true.

You think this may be a one season only rebuild?
They will continue to rebuild until they don't stink.
Then they'll claim victory.

Last year. Let ‘em play. See who fits.

Today- mold the core based on those last year results. Add one stud.

Play 2026 - .500. Redo off season. Add another stud.

Play compete 2027 ish.

My vision.

2027 has been cancelled

If so that was the weakest dump I've seen and without starting pitching I don't see the team winning.

Far more important than a "rebuild" is to stop the stupid.

Going "all in" is simply moving wins fro 4 to 8 seasons in the future to the near term 2 to 3 seasons (or less).
Tanking is simply moving wins from the next 2 to 3 seasons in the present to 4 to 8 seasons in the future.
Basically giving up all hope for ~4 in the hope of increasing your chances in the next ~4 years.
Not a fan of tanking or going "all in".

Start making smart decisions and the team will get better and better and can return to a 90+ win team. I'm very much in favor of that.

Scout HS and colleges better. Draft better prospects. Develop better.
Scout young international free agents better. Sign better international prospects. Develop better.
Scout other teams MLB and miLB players better. Win every trade in the long term. Sell high, buy low. Don't be reactionary.
Scout MLB and old international free agents. Sign a few free agents which actually help you win games.

Tanking and going "All In" is just moving around the deck chairs of the titanic.

cardstatman wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 22:09 pm

Tanking and going "All In" is just moving around the deck chairs of the titanic.

Agreed. And I think the team is on the same page. They aren't tanking with the objective of winning the lowest draft pick nor will they go all in future seasons

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:16 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:15 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:13 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:05 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:59 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:30 am With the dump of Gray and signing of his replacement?
Sure, Arenado needs to be dealt with, but nothing of significance coming back there.
Don't necessarily need to trade Donovan, as he could be part of rebuild.
So, if this is nearly all that will be done, it was a short and sweet rebuild.
At this juncture, does anyone call this a "Major Change"?
Even if they trade Donovan, it really isn't all that major.

This rebuild was never major, compared to other teams’ rebuilds.

Only some CTers acted like it was major and the end of the world…

Well, some think this is a multi year rebuild, so I guess over the course of a few years
it could turn out to be major.

After BD, NA, SG, WC and maybe JoJo are traded, that will be most of the tradeoff we will see.

We could see another year before we start really adding multi-year FAs. But the tradeoff will be done soon.

What people don't understand is we've been in a quasi-rebuild for 2.5 years now. Since TDL 2023, we haven't traded off any prospects, only accumulated them. And aside from Gray, haven't given out any big deals.

Good point.
We have been in a rebuild even though they wouldn't admit to it.
If they trade all those you mention this off season, that will be MAJOR!!!

Yes. If they trade those five, and SG is gone, that would be major. I’d agree.

For sure that would be major.
You asked if May was the stud pitcher they acquired...I think he could be, BUT...
He has to prove it, and he hasn't proven anything yet in his young career.
Too injury prone thus far.

Let’s play optimistic here. Let’s say May goes injury free- 32 starts. A decent bull pen. Whats his record?

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:28 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:16 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:15 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:13 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:05 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:59 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:30 am With the dump of Gray and signing of his replacement?
Sure, Arenado needs to be dealt with, but nothing of significance coming back there.
Don't necessarily need to trade Donovan, as he could be part of rebuild.
So, if this is nearly all that will be done, it was a short and sweet rebuild.
At this juncture, does anyone call this a "Major Change"?
Even if they trade Donovan, it really isn't all that major.

This rebuild was never major, compared to other teams’ rebuilds.

Only some CTers acted like it was major and the end of the world…

Well, some think this is a multi year rebuild, so I guess over the course of a few years
it could turn out to be major.

After BD, NA, SG, WC and maybe JoJo are traded, that will be most of the tradeoff we will see.

We could see another year before we start really adding multi-year FAs. But the tradeoff will be done soon.

What people don't understand is we've been in a quasi-rebuild for 2.5 years now. Since TDL 2023, we haven't traded off any prospects, only accumulated them. And aside from Gray, haven't given out any big deals.

Good point.
We have been in a rebuild even though they wouldn't admit to it.
If they trade all those you mention this off season, that will be MAJOR!!!

Yes. If they trade those five, and SG is gone, that would be major. I’d agree.

For sure that would be major.
You asked if May was the stud pitcher they acquired...I think he could be, BUT...
He has to prove it, and he hasn't proven anything yet in his young career.
Too injury prone thus far.

Let’s play optimistic here. Let’s say May goes injury free- 32 starts. A decent bull pen. Whats his record?

Optimistic would be he gets 25 starts.
I think they will go with a 6-man rotation, so he'll be limited and probably should be limited.
If he is on his game and logs 140-160 innings, I'd say he could project between 3.2-3.6 ERA.
I'm worried about our D though with potential trades.
All of our positional players will be below average Defense except SS and CF.
Frustration can take over really quick on the mound if the D is poor.
Maybe he can get 11 to 12 wins.

Bully4you wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:50 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:28 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:16 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:15 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:13 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:05 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:59 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:30 am With the dump of Gray and signing of his replacement?
Sure, Arenado needs to be dealt with, but nothing of significance coming back there.
Don't necessarily need to trade Donovan, as he could be part of rebuild.
So, if this is nearly all that will be done, it was a short and sweet rebuild.
At this juncture, does anyone call this a "Major Change"?
Even if they trade Donovan, it really isn't all that major.

This rebuild was never major, compared to other teams’ rebuilds.

Only some CTers acted like it was major and the end of the world…

Well, some think this is a multi year rebuild, so I guess over the course of a few years
it could turn out to be major.

After BD, NA, SG, WC and maybe JoJo are traded, that will be most of the tradeoff we will see.

We could see another year before we start really adding multi-year FAs. But the tradeoff will be done soon.

What people don't understand is we've been in a quasi-rebuild for 2.5 years now. Since TDL 2023, we haven't traded off any prospects, only accumulated them. And aside from Gray, haven't given out any big deals.

Good point.
We have been in a rebuild even though they wouldn't admit to it.
If they trade all those you mention this off season, that will be MAJOR!!!

Yes. If they trade those five, and SG is gone, that would be major. I’d agree.

For sure that would be major.
You asked if May was the stud pitcher they acquired...I think he could be, BUT...
He has to prove it, and he hasn't proven anything yet in his young career.
Too injury prone thus far.

Let’s play optimistic here. Let’s say May goes injury free- 32 starts. A decent bull pen. Whats his record?

Optimistic would be he gets 25 starts.
I think they will go with a 6-man rotation, so he'll be limited and probably should be limited.
If he is on his game and logs 140-160 innings, I'd say he could project between 3.2-3.6 ERA.
I'm worried about our D though with potential trades.
All of our positional players will be below average Defense except SS and CF.
Frustration can take over really quick on the mound if the D is poor.
Maybe he can get 11 to 12 wins.

Very fine response. I agree with your numbers. As to our D. If JJ is at second, then up the middle to Scott is second to none. If JJ is at third, a touch less D from the arenado days, but a better stick. Then who at second.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:50 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:28 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:16 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:15 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:13 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:05 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:59 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:30 am With the dump of Gray and signing of his replacement?
Sure, Arenado needs to be dealt with, but nothing of significance coming back there.
Don't necessarily need to trade Donovan, as he could be part of rebuild.
So, if this is nearly all that will be done, it was a short and sweet rebuild.
At this juncture, does anyone call this a "Major Change"?
Even if they trade Donovan, it really isn't all that major.

This rebuild was never major, compared to other teams’ rebuilds.

Only some CTers acted like it was major and the end of the world…

Well, some think this is a multi year rebuild, so I guess over the course of a few years
it could turn out to be major.

After BD, NA, SG, WC and maybe JoJo are traded, that will be most of the tradeoff we will see.

We could see another year before we start really adding multi-year FAs. But the tradeoff will be done soon.

What people don't understand is we've been in a quasi-rebuild for 2.5 years now. Since TDL 2023, we haven't traded off any prospects, only accumulated them. And aside from Gray, haven't given out any big deals.

Good point.
We have been in a rebuild even though they wouldn't admit to it.
If they trade all those you mention this off season, that will be MAJOR!!!

Yes. If they trade those five, and SG is gone, that would be major. I’d agree.

For sure that would be major.
You asked if May was the stud pitcher they acquired...I think he could be, BUT...
He has to prove it, and he hasn't proven anything yet in his young career.
Too injury prone thus far.

Let’s play optimistic here. Let’s say May goes injury free- 32 starts. A decent bull pen. Whats his record?

Optimistic would be he gets 25 starts.
I think they will go with a 6-man rotation, so he'll be limited and probably should be limited.
If he is on his game and logs 140-160 innings, I'd say he could project between 3.2-3.6 ERA.
I'm worried about our D though with potential trades.
All of our positional players will be below average Defense except SS and CF.
Frustration can take over really quick on the mound if the D is poor.
Maybe he can get 11 to 12 wins.

Very fine response. I agree with your numbers. As to our D. If JJ is at second, then up the middle to Scott is second to none. If JJ is at third, a touch less D from the arenado days, but a better stick. Then who at second.

I think JJ is for sure the 2nd baseman if they move Donovan.
Gorman at 3rd.
Remember we have either Contreras at 1st or Burly there.
The corners will be our Achilles heel.
That includes the corner outfield as well.
Catcher isn't anything to brag about either.
Up the middle should be fine.

Bob39 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 12:45 pm

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:43 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:40 am

AnExParrot wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:38 am Why do you/would you think this is a single year endeavor?

I believe this to be true.

You think this may be a one season only rebuild?
They will continue to rebuild until they don't stink.
Then they'll claim victory.

I'm sure you have heard the old line about why the Indian rain dance always worked. Because they kept dancing until it rained.

Made me laugh
Good one.

earp wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 14:38 pm Rebuild:
Need a player to build team around.
Who is that player?

We have a bunch of maybees.
They may be good.
Throwing my hands in the air!!

Bully4you wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:57 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:50 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2025 06:28 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:16 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:15 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:13 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 08:05 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:59 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑18 Dec 2025 07:30 am With the dump of Gray and signing of his replacement?
Sure, Arenado needs to be dealt with, but nothing of significance coming back there.
Don't necessarily need to trade Donovan, as he could be part of rebuild.
So, if this is nearly all that will be done, it was a short and sweet rebuild.
At this juncture, does anyone call this a "Major Change"?
Even if they trade Donovan, it really isn't all that major.

This rebuild was never major, compared to other teams’ rebuilds.

Only some CTers acted like it was major and the end of the world…

Well, some think this is a multi year rebuild, so I guess over the course of a few years
it could turn out to be major.

After BD, NA, SG, WC and maybe JoJo are traded, that will be most of the tradeoff we will see.

We could see another year before we start really adding multi-year FAs. But the tradeoff will be done soon.

What people don't understand is we've been in a quasi-rebuild for 2.5 years now. Since TDL 2023, we haven't traded off any prospects, only accumulated them. And aside from Gray, haven't given out any big deals.

Good point.
We have been in a rebuild even though they wouldn't admit to it.
If they trade all those you mention this off season, that will be MAJOR!!!

Yes. If they trade those five, and SG is gone, that would be major. I’d agree.

For sure that would be major.
You asked if May was the stud pitcher they acquired...I think he could be, BUT...
He has to prove it, and he hasn't proven anything yet in his young career.
Too injury prone thus far.

Let’s play optimistic here. Let’s say May goes injury free- 32 starts. A decent bull pen. Whats his record?

Optimistic would be he gets 25 starts.
I think they will go with a 6-man rotation, so he'll be limited and probably should be limited.
If he is on his game and logs 140-160 innings, I'd say he could project between 3.2-3.6 ERA.
I'm worried about our D though with potential trades.
All of our positional players will be below average Defense except SS and CF.
Frustration can take over really quick on the mound if the D is poor.
Maybe he can get 11 to 12 wins.

Very fine response. I agree with your numbers. As to our D. If JJ is at second, then up the middle to Scott is second to none. If JJ is at third, a touch less D from the arenado days, but a better stick. Then who at second.

I think JJ is for sure the 2nd baseman if they move Donovan.
Gorman at 3rd.
Remember we have either Contreras at 1st or Burly there.
The corners will be our Achilles heel.
That includes the corner outfield as well.
Catcher isn't anything to brag about either.
Up the middle should be fine.

If- Walker hits? Right is covered. Anything more than what we got from Walker makes this a better team instantly.

Herrera left. You heard it here. Catching will zap his power and promote injury. Could be a 20 he left fielder.

Willy at first. If not traded. If so- Gorman or Burleson.

Third- never Gorman. Anybody but. Even if Nado. But this is the one position that might need external touch up.

These are maybes.