Maybe I look at it with the eyes of an old man...

[mattmitchl44]

The Cardinals as well as any other sports team do
owe that community. It is implied that they will attempt
to compete.

I would argue that by what they are doing they ARE trying to give themselves the best opportunity to bring another WS title to St. Louis. It's just going to take some patience until 2028, 2029 to give themselves that "best opportunity."

And, for context, I'll repeat from page 1:

I don't think anyone has said for the Cardinals to not spend ANY money this offseason. If they want to go out and get relatively cheap FAs on short term 1-2 year deals, maybe with an eye towards flipping them for more prospects in July 2026, that would be fine. If that wins them a few more games next year, makes some people like the OP feel like they are "being competitive", etc. - more power to them.

What I, at least, have said is that I don't want to see them going out and signing really expensive players over age 30 - your Schwarbers, Valdezs, even Bellingers, etc. - to the 5, 6, 7 year contracts they are almost certain to get.

We've all seen it over and over and over again - when teams sign these older, expensive players to long contracts:

1) you get a couple of great years at the beginning of the contract
2) you get a couple of average to good years in the middle of the contract, and then
3) you get 1, 2, 3 relatively bad years at the end of the contract where you wish you were out from under it

So, when you do go out and sign those kinds of older, expensive players, you want their great years at the beginning of those contracts to overlap with when the rest of your roster is primed to "win now." But the rest of the Cardinals roster is not primed in 2026 to "win now." When Wetherholt and Doyle (hopefully) start to hit their stride in the majors in 2-3 years, the Cardinals should be primed to "win now" in 2028, 2029, 2030. That will be when they want to add these older, expensive players so that their great remaining years overlap with the talent on the rest of the roster.

[Cranny]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

Sort of a Richard thing to say and idiotic. The business does not owe their customers anything? Wow! You must work for the government.

Entitled twaat.

The Cardinals as well as any other sports team do
owe that community. It is implied that they will attempt
to compete.

Any other business and I'll likely agree. But any other business that was
locally based would go belly up if they didn't deliver the implied product.
Sports teams don't have that risk. The owners, who we could also call entitled if we wanted,
took that duty on when they bought a franchise and ask for all levels of
community support, state support, tax breaks, help build their places of business.
So who is acting so entitled?

Most understand that WS are rare. Only 11 championships in 144 years with several occurring
not in their time. Yet that's best in the NL, so most get it, that is hardly an entitled view with
an implied contract.

Effort to win should be shown with a team that represents a community that is supported
by that community. If owners don't want to live up to that responsibility, it's easy sell since the job is too big.
Take the millions or billions that you made from being simply the caretaker of a historic franchise and go.

The name calling isn't needed unless that's all you have to offer.
Many hide behind an anonymous keyboard when doing so.

Agree with all of that, except it's very hard to compete for a WS now, going up against payrolls that are so huge. The gap has widened a great deal.

[renostl]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

Sort of a Richard thing to say and idiotic. The business does not owe their customers anything? Wow! You must work for the government.

Entitled twaat.

The Cardinals as well as any other sports team do
owe that community. It is implied that they will attempt
to compete.

Any other business and I'll likely agree. But any other business that was
locally based would go belly up if they didn't deliver the implied product.
Sports teams don't have that risk. The owners, who we could also call entitled if we wanted,
took that duty on when they bought a franchise and ask for all levels of
community support, state support, tax breaks, help build their places of business.
So who is acting so entitled?

Most understand that WS are rare. Only 11 championships in 144 years with several occurring
not in their time. Yet that's best in the NL, so most get it, that is hardly an entitled view with
an implied contract.

Effort to win should be shown with a team that represents a community that is supported
by that community. If owners don't want to live up to that responsibility, it's easy sell since the job is too big.
Take the millions or billions that you made from being simply the caretaker of a historic franchise and go.

The name calling isn't needed unless that's all you have to offer.
Many hide behind an anonymous keyboard when doing so.

Agree with all of that, except it's very hard to compete for a WS now, going up against payrolls that are so huge. The gap has widened a great deal.

No doubt.
Hard to win, not hard to compete.

It's the depth, the second and third chances the money allows
more than the stars.

We can only be the best us. This cycle will run its course too.

[imetsatchelpaige]

A

gree with all of that, except it's very hard to compete for a WS now, going up against payrolls that are so huge. The gap has widened a great deal.

No doubt. And yet there were the Brewers in the NLCS, so hope springs eternal ./.÷.

Great thread, btw. I try not to let the fact that I am now past 70 affect my thinking about the long-term rebuild of the team. But as others like Melville have said, it is not an either-or situation. A well managed team (yeah, I know) with decent pitching, young players like Winn, Burleson and Hererra rounding into form, and a couple of serious spark plugs-veteran or rookie-we could compete in the Central.

I would dearly love one last opportunity to run around with my hair on fire during a World Series. 2011 seems like a very long time ago. So does 2006, 1982, 1967 and 1964-and I was there for all of them, along with the ghosts of great Cardinal teams past.

[Absolut]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

Who is saying that?

[renostl]

The Cardinals as well as any other sports team do
owe that community. It is implied that they will attempt
to compete.

I would argue that by what they are doing they ARE trying to give themselves the best opportunity to bring another WS title to St. Louis. It's just going to take some patience until 2028, 2029 to give themselves that "best opportunity."

And, for context, I'll repeat from page 1:

I don't think anyone has said for the Cardinals to not spend ANY money this offseason. If they want to go out and get relatively cheap FAs on short term 1-2 year deals, maybe with an eye towards flipping them for more prospects in July 2026, that would be fine. If that wins them a few more games next year, makes some people like the OP feel like they are "being competitive", etc. - more power to them.

What I, at least, have said is that I don't want to see them going out and signing really expensive players over age 30 - your Schwarbers, Valdezs, even Bellingers, etc. - to the 5, 6, 7 year contracts they are almost certain to get.

We've all seen it over and over and over again - when teams sign these older, expensive players to long contracts:

1) you get a couple of great years at the beginning of the contract
2) you get a couple of average to good years in the middle of the contract, and then
3) you get 1, 2, 3 relatively bad years at the end of the contract where you wish you were out from under it

So, when you do go out and sign those kinds of older, expensive players, you want their great years at the beginning of those contracts to overlap with when the rest of your roster is primed to "win now." But the rest of the Cardinals roster is not primed in 2026 to "win now." When Wetherholt and Doyle (hopefully) start to hit their stride in the majors in 2-3 years, the Cardinals should be primed to "win now" in 2028, 2029, 2030. That will be when they want to add these older, expensive players so that their great remaining years overlap with the talent on the rest of the roster.

That quote of mine was solely in response to
"The Cardinals owe you nothing"
I disagree with that.

The methods of how to get to a higher competitive level can be debated or discussed
indefinitely I suppose. We actually don't differ all that much other than seemly needing to do
one thing at a time. Cards in my mind need trades. Trades are unpredictable with
the return.

A hundred threads ago I asked what a trade that returns a A. Pages or Tatis Jr
would change in regard to timelines. What thoughts on that?

[mattmitchl44]

A hundred threads ago I asked what a trade that returns a A. Pages or Tatis Jr
would change in regard to timelines. What thoughts on that?

I think Pages fits, but Tatis doesn't. And Tatis has a full no trade clause through 2028, should he not want to come to St. Louis.

[renostl]

A hundred threads ago I asked what a trade that returns a A. Pages or Tatis Jr
would change in regard to timelines. What thoughts on that?

I think Pages fits, but Tatis doesn't. And Tatis has a full no trade clause through 2028, should he not want to come to St. Louis.

Do they move a timeline?
A 25 y/o productive player in CF. Burleson @ corner at 27, JJ 3B @23, Winn SS @24,
Donovan 29 at 2B
Gray, Libs, Mcgreevy.

That's a single player obtained. I know I didn't say how that got him. It is more about how a single
change puts the team in a different position, one that challenges for a NLC title with money
to fill in and depth in the BP, C, LF. Any more players emerge Baez, Church, Walker, Gorman,
Mathews, Doyle, Mautz, Crooks fine but there is not any over reliance on it.
That's getting close to the formula, now add or toss and restart?

Just FYI, I'm rarely in favor of term beyond 4/5 years. Rarely.

Totally respect and read most of your posts. I just don't believe that there is a single
path. I also don't believe we can simply say be TB with money. That totally changes what
they do, who they kept, who they traded to get that higher tier player and did they spend well.
All unknown with unknown results.

[spfldan]

It’s weird. I look at a writing, and sometimes a song lyric appears. Maybe a spiritual extension of the musics intent.

Problem I have with it is sometimes it starts an earworm and I have to go dig up the tab and lyrics and learn the effing song.

That’s actually my intent. Make others listen. Maybe hear a beat new song. Or as in many cases, remember an old lost classic. I don’t know if it is a curse, bad habit, blessing, or a gift- ha. Silly [shirt].

It's a gift dog, and I am entertained.

[sikeston bulldog2]

It’s weird. I look at a writing, and sometimes a song lyric appears. Maybe a spiritual extension of the musics intent.

Problem I have with it is sometimes it starts an earworm and I have to go dig up the tab and lyrics and learn the effing song.

That’s actually my intent. Make others listen. Maybe hear a beat new song. Or as in many cases, remember an old lost classic. I don’t know if it is a curse, bad habit, blessing, or a gift- ha. Silly [shirt].

It's a gift dog, and I am entertained.

I think many to most have the same thought process. The ability to be reminded of what we are not now.

[CCard]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The good news CC is C. Bloom is on record saying even though he won't take his eye off the LT goal of re-building a pipeline of talent thru the system he also won't concede any single season w/o a fight, including 2026.

I expect he'll improve the 2025 roster thru trades & smart (low cost) free agent signings and the 2026 team will be much better than the 2025 edition.

From your mouth to God's ears brother. I just want to win.

[Melville]

2011 seems like a very long time ago.....

It was.
And the lack of urgency over the past 10+ years in trying to get another shot at it is disgraceful given the rabid support of fans which very, very few teams in all of professional sports have enjoyed to the same level.
Let's see if there is any true indication of change under Bloom.

[CCard]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

As I read your post I thought of the football coach George Allen. He used to to say “ the future is now” or something like that. I too would like to be more aggressive and build a competitive team now. That is why I have gone back and forth about trading a young player like Donovan. HE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM. He is young and I think will be a great talent over next 6 to 8 years. Why not lock him down? I realize he is most valuable trade chip. Trading our best makes me feel like the Pirates.

Anyway I hope for you they can start playing competitive baseball sooner than later. I am also an old guy. I would like to see a championship again ( maybe two or three).

Yeah, it seems like those would be the type of players you'd want to keep. If they get rid of him I certainly hope it's to make the team better now and not some lottery ticket years down the road.

[CCard]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

I beg to differ. So should you.

[Melville]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

I beg to differ. So should you.

You are correct.

[CCard]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

Sorry. If they would’ve done this sooner we wouldn’t be talking about 3-5 years out but sadly to many of you are very hard headed about the reality of baseball, just like Mo.

If this helps your perspective at least you got to see some championship teams. Don’t be selfish and force the younger generations to grow up with more mediocrity by begging for the status quo to continue.

Here's the thing you don't seem to get through your hard head. Deconstructing a team only guarantees losses. It doesn't in any way guarantee future success. If it did, Pitts, Cincy, Miami, etc would all be sitting on championships. The Cards just went nearly two decades competing every year and you think that was wrong. 3 million fans year in and year out would argue the point with you.