Maybe I look at it with the eyes of an old man...

[sikeston bulldog2]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

This old man. He worked for thirty years with, two strong hands.
In the factory light his, lunchbox held all his needs: his coffee, sandwiches; and dreams.

For me.

Styx.

[alw80]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

[mattmitchl44]

If you get two great years, two good years, and two bad years, isn’t that success. And isn’t that better than the path we have been in n for 12 years.

I’d submit, just about all long term deals, young or old vets, have down years. I think it’s the nature of the beast.

If the great years are great enough and the good years are good enough, overall the contract can work out and the team can get a reasonable value (like ~1 fWAR per $8 million spent) if you average over the entire contract.

But if you want to translate that into team success, into winning NL pennants and World Series, the timing of those great and good years is critical. You mostly need the great years to coincide with when the rest of roster is at its peak as well.

[sikeston bulldog2]

If you get two great years, two good years, and two bad years, isn’t that success. And isn’t that better than the path we have been in n for 12 years.

I’d submit, just about all long term deals, young or old vets, have down years. I think it’s the nature of the beast.

If the great years are great enough and the good years are good enough, overall the contract can work out and the team can get a reasonable value (like ~1 fWAR per $8 million spent) if you average over the entire contract.

But if you want to translate that into team success, into winning NL pennants and World Series, the timing of those great and good years is critical. You mostly need the great years to coincide with when the rest of roster is at its peak as well.

Yea. You’re basically talking about a perfect storm. And a perfect storm is the type season 25 teams are gonna need to win, minus the payroll five.

Timing is everything.

[mattmitchl44]

If you get two great years, two good years, and two bad years, isn’t that success. And isn’t that better than the path we have been in n for 12 years.

I’d submit, just about all long term deals, young or old vets, have down years. I think it’s the nature of the beast.

If the great years are great enough and the good years are good enough, overall the contract can work out and the team can get a reasonable value (like ~1 fWAR per $8 million spent) if you average over the entire contract.

But if you want to translate that into team success, into winning NL pennants and World Series, the timing of those great and good years is critical. You mostly need the great years to coincide with when the rest of roster is at its peak as well.

Yea. You’re basically talking about a perfect storm. And a perfect storm is the type season 25 teams are gonna need to win, minus the payroll five.

Timing is everything.

Yeah, all you can do is play the probabilities. Any FA you sign for like their age 32 to age 38 seasons (a 7 yr. contract):

- If they are going to have great years, they are much more likely to come at age 32 and age 33
- If they are going to have terrible years, they are much more like to come at age 37 and age 38
- Etc.

That's basically all you can know and all you can plan around.

[sikeston bulldog2]

If you get two great years, two good years, and two bad years, isn’t that success. And isn’t that better than the path we have been in n for 12 years.

I’d submit, just about all long term deals, young or old vets, have down years. I think it’s the nature of the beast.

If the great years are great enough and the good years are good enough, overall the contract can work out and the team can get a reasonable value (like ~1 fWAR per $8 million spent) if you average over the entire contract.

But if you want to translate that into team success, into winning NL pennants and World Series, the timing of those great and good years is critical. You mostly need the great years to coincide with when the rest of roster is at its peak as well.

Yea. You’re basically talking about a perfect storm. And a perfect storm is the type season 25 teams are gonna need to win, minus the payroll five.

Timing is everything.

Yeah, all you can do is play the probabilities. Any FA you sign for like their age 32 to age 38 seasons (a 7 yr. contract):

- If they are going to have great years, they are much more likely to come at age 32 and age 33
- If they are going to have terrible years, they are much more like to come at age 37 and age 38
- Etc.

That's basically all you can know and all you can plan around.

Yes sir. On paper it may rock. But as they say, you still gotta play the game.

One game always reminds me of- gotta play the game theory . After the Denkinger loss, I expected a good tough game, and win, against KC. A blow out.

Gotta play the game.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Heck if I thought they COULD compete without this rebuild I'd be all in. I don't. I think the team is like a rusted hulk that needs dry dock and some serious welding and work.

I am also no spring chicken but it is what it is. This team has to have a better foundation and it isn't going to come from spending on free agents. The costs are too high and competition for the elite talent too fierce now from a few uber rich teams. The majority of talent has to come from within.

I also do not think this needs to be a 5 year plan. Based on current talent I believe we should see a team trying to win the division in 2028. Note this is a one year delay because they are not going to open the wallet with the impending potential lockout.

Sorry for anyone even older than me and facing few years of life left. But it is what it is and STL can't avoid this IMO. If they want to ever be relevant again this is a must do.

[mattmitchl44]

Heck if I thought they COULD compete without this rebuild I'd be all in. I don't. I think the team is like a rusted hulk that needs dry dock and some serious welding and work.

I am also no spring chicken but it is what it is. This team has to have a better foundation and it isn't going to come from spending on free agents. The costs are too high and competition for the elite talent too fierce now from a few uber rich teams. The majority of talent has to come from within.

I also do not think this needs to be a 5 year plan. Based on current talent I believe we should see a team trying to win the division in 2028. Note this is a one year delay because they are not going to open the wallet with the impending potential lockout.

Sorry for anyone even older than me and facing few years of life left. But it is what it is and STL can't avoid this IMO. If they want to ever be relevant again this is a must do.

I think part of this is people, like the OP, calling for "just give me a team with a 3-5% chance of winning a WS in 2026!" vs. those of us looking toward patiently building the team into one that could have a, say, 15% or 20% chance of winning a WS in 2028, 2029, 2030, simply don't believe the Cardinals can ever build their roster toward having more than single digit percentage chance of winning a WS. Their pessimism regarding what can be done leads them to just continually ask for the minimum (just make the playoffs and hope for the best) because they don't see a difference between them.

[Jatalk]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

As I read your post I thought of the football coach George Allen. He used to to say “ the future is now” or something like that. I too would like to be more aggressive and build a competitive team now. That is why I have gone back and forth about trading a young player like Donovan. HE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM. He is young and I think will be a great talent over next 6 to 8 years. Why not lock him down? I realize he is most valuable trade chip. Trading our best makes me feel like the Pirates.

Anyway I hope for you they can start playing competitive baseball sooner than later. I am also an old guy. I would like to see a championship again ( maybe two or three).

[mattmitchl44]

That is why I have gone back and forth about trading a young player like Donovan. HE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM. He is young and I think will be a great talent over next 6 to 8 years. Why not lock him down? I realize he is most valuable trade chip. Trading our best makes me feel like the Pirates.

I think the point here is, and as much as I like Donovan, if he's the best player on your team, you have basically zero chance of winning a WS.

[scoutyjones2]

Maybe it's me, but the success or failure of my favorite sports team doesn't make or break any stage of my life.

It's entertainment for Christ sake.

[Jatalk]

That is why I have gone back and forth about trading a young player like Donovan. HE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM. He is young and I think will be a great talent over next 6 to 8 years. Why not lock him down? I realize he is most valuable trade chip. Trading our best makes me feel like the Pirates.

I think the point here is, and as much as I like Donovan, if he's the best player on your team, you have basically zero chance of winning a WS.

I’m realistic about Donovan and you can’t win with just Donovan obviously. But you need to build with good players. He is the most proven player on the team.

[mattmitchl44]

That is why I have gone back and forth about trading a young player like Donovan. HE IS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE TEAM. He is young and I think will be a great talent over next 6 to 8 years. Why not lock him down? I realize he is most valuable trade chip. Trading our best makes me feel like the Pirates.

I think the point here is, and as much as I like Donovan, if he's the best player on your team, you have basically zero chance of winning a WS.

I’m realistic about Donovan and you can’t win with just Donovan obviously. But you need to build with good players. He is the most proven player on the team.

Yes, but I think they are at a point where they have to trade the current Donovan for a higher ceiling prospect who they expect to be a better player in 2-3 years than Donovan is now.

[rockondlouie]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The good news CC is C. Bloom is on record saying even though he won't take his eye off the LT goal of re-building a pipeline of talent thru the system he also won't concede any single season w/o a fight, including 2026.

I expect he'll improve the 2025 roster thru trades & smart (low cost) free agent signings and the 2026 team will be much better than the 2025 edition.

[Melville]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

Respectfully disagree.
The Cardinals owe the revenue generating fan base everything.
I have nearly half a million clients who benefit from what we provide.
They pay my company to deliver quality products and services.
We exist only because clients find value in what we do.
I owe it to them to deliver a quality value ever year.
The Cardinals - and the ownership group - is no different than any other business.
They absolutely owe their fans base.
CCard has been a loyal supporter for decades - and the Cardinals absolutely owe him a quality product in return.

[Jatalk]

Some on here are proponents of intentionally making the team worse in the short term to try to catch lightning in a bottle long term. They say 3 to 5 years and we'll have a super team. On par to the Dodgers and Yankees of MLB. I might be biased in that I'm an old man in ill health and I might not have 3 to 5 years to wait for this vaunted super team. I've been a Cardinals fan since I was a young teenager and it was the one thing that me and my grandfather could relate to together. It helped us grow close. He's been gone a long time now. He got to enjoy Whiteyball in the 80's but he was gone by the time Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright made their marks. He would have loved it. That's why I'm a proponent of getting into the playoffs. At least you give people hope that it can happen. Intentionally losing has a stench about it that just doesn't sit well with me. I may have a few years and I'd hate to see it taken away by some pie in the sky rebuilding plan. Those of us near the end want to challenge and win now, not in 5 years. If anything is for sure it's that not all of us will get that chance. So you see, might vision for the Cards is not the same as some who "have a plan" that would take years. Aside from all the other number crunching, Baseball is about heart, feeling. To me that's what its always been about and I'd hate to deprive the fans of that excitement. Especially those near the end.

The Cardinals owe you nothing.

Sort of a Richard thing to say and idiotic. The business does not owe their customers anything? Wow! You must work for the government.