Competing now vs. rebuilding are conflicting goals

[Carp4Cy]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

I think the last 10 years of MO have made many forget that you can actually build a team several ways and not just one.

Agree on both points. And further, maybe Matthews or Doyle arrives in Aug/Sept and gives our staff a major boost and suddenly turns an 80 win team into an 85 win team, a playoff spot, and maybe we even win a series and play 6-7 games in October. That playoff experience could speed true playoff success up by a year or more, because its highly doubtful a completely unexperienced team would ever win it all the first year they suddenly decide to go all in and compete. Any level of playoff experience is a huge boost to a rebuilding franchise.

But you have to give it a chance at least, and not hamstring the budget so heavily that even great progress and production by what we have left isn't nearly enough. Give a winning culture a chance to "bloom".

[Red Bird Classic]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

Wasting?

Not sure why some seem to think the Cardinals should now be placed in the same sad sac, poormouth category as the Pirates, A's, Rockies, ect.....when BDWJr has reaped enormous returns during his tenure as principle owner?

$110-130M 2026 payroll in no way, shape or form "waste" resources.

And you should care how many games the 2026 team wins since BDWJr has ALWAYS made one thing clear......

PAYROLL is tied 100% to ATTENDANCE!

So if you want to see him up that payroll back to $180M after the system starts churning out quality prospects, then you need to at least put a decent team on the field in 2026/27 that keeps the fan bases interest and at least 2+M coming to games.

Win those 60 games and attendance will be below late 1970's level while payroll will never see $180M again.

DeWitt's propaganda is nonsense. He can say what he likes but we've seen the result of his actions: the team has slipped into consistent irrelevance. That's more damaging to the team's long term success than losing some profit in the short term.

Recall what DeWitt did when he purchased the team back in the 90's? Despite poor attendance, DeWitt hired La Russa and spent money of free agents.

The horse goes before the cart. Not the other way round.

[mattmitchl44]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

100% zuck

As your post proves fans will still come out and support an 80 win team, they'll abandon a 60 win team. Even though they were never that bad, we have the 1970's as proof Cardinals fan don't support a loser. And there's way more entertainment options for their dollars today than there was in the 70's.

On average the Cardinals attendance only dropped 25% through all of the 1970s seasons when compared to 1967-1968 when they played in the WS.

They didn't see a huge drop in attendance in the 1970s.

[Red Bird Classic]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.

Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.

Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.

Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.

[rockondlouie]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

100% zuck

As your post proves fans will still come out and support an 80 win team, they'll abandon a 60 win team. Even though they were never that bad, we have the 1970's as proof Cardinals fan don't support a loser. And there's way more entertainment options for their dollars today than there was in the 70's.

On average the Cardinals attendance only dropped 25% through all of the 1970s seasons when compared to 1967-1968 when they played in the WS.

They didn't see a huge drop in attendance in the 1970s.

HA!

They lost 900,000+ fans (1972 vs 1967)!

In their best attendance season in the 70's they still lost over 200,000 fans vs the winning teams of the late 60's.

From 1966 - 1969 the Cardinal averaged 21,000+ - 25,000+ per game, of course they were also WINNERS.

From 1970 -79 they saw years where they averaged under 20,000 seven times, some as low as 14,900 per game, of course they won nothing.

When they won 81+ games, they averaged 19,000+ - 22,000+.

When they lost 80+ games, they averaged 15,000+ three times!

You obviously weren't here matt as we saw crowds in the or many years in the low to mid teens in the 1970's.

If they don't field a decent team in 2026, then you're looking at that 15,000 - 20,000 average.

Unlike you matt I hold season tixs, was there for over 60 games last season and saw the TINY crowds first hand.

[rockondlouie]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

Wasting?

Not sure why some seem to think the Cardinals should now be placed in the same sad sac, poormouth category as the Pirates, A's, Rockies, ect.....when BDWJr has reaped enormous returns during his tenure as principle owner?

$110-130M 2026 payroll in no way, shape or form "waste" resources.

And you should care how many games the 2026 team wins since BDWJr has ALWAYS made one thing clear......

PAYROLL is tied 100% to ATTENDANCE!

So if you want to see him up that payroll back to $180M after the system starts churning out quality prospects, then you need to at least put a decent team on the field in 2026/27 that keeps the fan bases interest and at least 2+M coming to games.

Win those 60 games and attendance will be below late 1970's level while payroll will never see $180M again.

DeWitt's propaganda is nonsense. He can say what he likes but we've seen the result of his actions: the team has slipped into consistent irrelevance. That's more damaging to the team's long term success than losing some profit in the short term.

Recall what DeWitt did when he purchased the team back in the 90's? Despite poor attendance, DeWitt hired La Russa and spent money of free agents.

The horse goes before the cart. Not the other way round.

We're in total agreement RBC about Dewitt.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Some want to gloss over this fact as they push the narrative that the Cardinals should do both - compete now and rebuild the player development organization.

But those goals are in conflict, they are not complimentary.

They obviously conflict on the very important questions of:

- Should they trade Donovan?
- Should they trade Gray?
- Should they trade Contreras?
- Maybe even should they trade Arenado?

If they are competing the answer to most/all of those is no. If they are rebuilding it is yes. You can't have it both ways.

And also on the question of:

- Who should they potentially sign as FAs and why?

If they try to compete and rebuild simultaneously, the net result will much more likely be that they will do both poorly rather than do both (or either) well.

I agree. So long as they commit to the rebuild it's what I want to see in 2026. That means dealing all those veterans. Signing lottery tickets that might bring back more talent at the deadline, watching for high ceiling players struggling that might be dealt for an average ML player now.

But they have to do it ALL if they want to compete in 2027 and onward. And they will need to spend in 2027 more than $130 mil. Once the farm is functioning and primed the ML roster should be closer to $180mil to have a shot. I'm willing to wait until 2028 to see full spending commitment if they are doing all the rest right.

[ecleme22]

You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.

No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).


This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…

I agree with signing FAs on one year deals, but they are never going to get to being competitive in 2026 based on those additions.

So, IMO, that is not trying to compete.

Well, let's remember how bad Miko, Pallante, Arenado, Fedde and several others were. And the team was 78-84.

I don't think the 2026 team, with the addition of FA vets, will win 100 games. But 82-87 could happen. And that's competitive.

I think there's this assumption that the team will automatically be worse than 2025. I don't think that's the case.

Fortunately, the rebuild isn't starting at zero like the 2012 Cubs.

If you like what we've been getting, then follow this plan because you're simply regurgitating the teams strategy for the last decade.

You may be smarter than DeWitt and MO, not a heavy lift, but you're not bringing home any WS flags with that plan.

Name all the 1 year deals for STARTING players the Cards have signed from 2012-2025.

I'm not talking about signing one year players. I'm talking about your insistence that the team try to be "competitive" every year, even though they have almost zero chance of winning a title even if we added these players.

Instead, the team should spend that money signing some INFAs or hiring better development coaches, etc..

Well, when you sign low risk / high reward vets to one year deals, one of the reasons you do it is to flip them at the deadline to increase the prospects in your organization. Being competitive in 2026 wouldn't be the primary reason for the acquisitions...

[11WSChamps]

Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.

If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.

If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.

[BrockFloodMaris]

You can compete now by signing vets to one year deals.

No vet should be picked up by way of trading prospects, nor be the primary return for any of our trades (the exception would be an Arenado for Castellanos deal if Bloom can’t get anything for NA…).


This strategy is pro today and pro rebuild. If the team is out of it, you flip all the vets at the deadline…

I agree with signing FAs on one year deals, but they are never going to get to being competitive in 2026 based on those additions.

So, IMO, that is not trying to compete.

Well, let's remember how bad Miko, Pallante, Arenado, Fedde and several others were. And the team was 78-84.

I don't think the 2026 team, with the addition of FA vets, will win 100 games. But 82-87 could happen. And that's competitive.

I think there's this assumption that the team will automatically be worse than 2025. I don't think that's the case.

Fortunately, the rebuild isn't starting at zero like the 2012 Cubs.

If you like what we've been getting, then follow this plan because you're simply regurgitating the teams strategy for the last decade.

You may be smarter than DeWitt and MO, not a heavy lift, but you're not bringing home any WS flags with that plan.

Name all the 1 year deals for STARTING players the Cards have signed from 2012-2025.

I'm not talking about signing one year players. I'm talking about your insistence that the team try to be "competitive" every year, even though they have almost zero chance of winning a title even if we added these players.

Instead, the team should spend that money signing some INFAs or hiring better development coaches, etc..

Well, when you sign low risk / high reward vets to one year deals, one of the reasons you do it is to flip them at the deadline to increase the prospects in your organization. Being competitive in 2026 wouldn't be the primary reason for the acquisitions...

Low risk / high reward vets are typically going to command multi-year deals, which creates more risk and makes them less flippable, unless they are really helping your team, in which case you'd hate to lose them.

[Hoosier59]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.

Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.

Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.

Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.

I kinda have to disagree here a little bit. How many times in MO’s last few years, did we discuss on here how the Cardinals stopped just short of what they KNEW they needed to do??? A player here, a player there, and the team would have been a lot better. So, to be fair, the Cardinals have not really tried to win in a long time. All they have tried to do is win 80 some games and hopefully reach the Post Season where then anything might happen. Well, they didn’t and it hasn’t ! Under the current conditions, DeWitt isn’t going to either. It’s just too expensive to really go for it for him.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.

If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.

If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.

Yes. They have real problems. Which they are addressing via a rebuild of the farm system. If people can't see this they are in the wrong forum.

[11WSChamps]

Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.

If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.

If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.

Yes. They have real problems. Which they are addressing via a rebuild of the farm system. If people can't see this they are in the wrong forum.

Uh huh.

What team wins without generational players?

Do we have one in the organization now? How long until you draft one if ever?

Who from the organization can we trade to obtain such potential?

This franchise has never won a championship without one.

[Red Bird Classic]

Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.

If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.

If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.

Your name suggests you know better, but if you think the game is winning this division, you're following the wrong team.

Our competition is the Dodgers and Yankees, not the Pirates and Reds.

[Carp4Cy]

Completely wrong premise by matt.

C. Bloom already has repaired Mo's broken minor league player development system and continues to add quality people to the system.

Nothing done at the big league level can disrupt that...........THE MINOR LEAGUE SYSTEM IS NOW PRIMED to send quality players to the Cardinals!

He can now focus on dealing away veterans like NADO, S. Gray, Donny and maybe even WillyC for prospects or YOUNG MAJOR LEAGUE players with years of control............while STILL FIELDING A COMPETITVE, BUT PERHAPS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.

If he's able to save some payroll money dealing away those veterans contracts, then BDWJR (LIKELY) will allow him to re-invest that savings into the 2026 roster adding major league players via trades and smart, low cost free agency.

The 2026 payroll will likely settle somewhere in the $115-130M range...................NOT $200M.

If the Cardinals win 90 games or lose 90 games in 2026 how on earth does this setback the re-build?

AGAIN

THIS DOES NOTHING to disrupt the minor league system or halt the minors from funneling players to the Cardinals in this re-build!

How some can't see this is baffling.

What's baffling is that you think being competitive, while not even making the playoffs, is worth wasting recourses on. Who cares if the team wins 80 or 60 games in 2026? They're not going to compete for the league title and that's all that really matters.

I totally disagree. I would prefer to watch an 80 game winner vs. a 60 game winner any day! And nobody says you have to spend crazy money, but I will never sign up for a team that isn't trying to win and at least be worth watching. So many people here are afraid of spending a little of Bill's money and I just cannot for the life of me understand why? Signing a few decent free agents and building thru prospects can actully coincide. And yea, maybe you will only win 80 games, but at least I will have the will to at least watch. But I will not watch or spend a dime on 2019 to 2022 Pirates who averaged 60 win seasons. No thank you.

The reason the Cardinals have fallen into irrelevance is because the team did just what you suggest: they tired to keep the team nominally "competitive" even when the odds of the team winning a title were almost nothing.

Sometimes winning -- and I mean really winning not just 80 games but a ring -- requires that you step back, make sacrifices, cut away the dead wood to make room for new growth. Honestly, the Cardinals reached that point years ago, but to try to remain "competitive" they clung to over the hill stars, and traded for the twilight years of old stars, and now here we are with a team that is neither nominally "competitive" nor truly competitive.

Fans need to face facts: We are not the Yankees or Dodgers. we can't be truly competitive every year, we have to stop, step back, reload, and take another shot.

Maybe the system will change after the new CBA, but in the meantime we have to accept our reality and not try to skip steps. That will only keep us where we're at.

I kinda have to disagree here a little bit. How many times in MO’s last few years, did we discuss on here how the Cardinals stopped just short of what they KNEW they needed to do??? A player here, a player there, and the team would have been a lot better. So, to be fair, the Cardinals have not really tried to win in a long time. All they have tried to do is win 80 some games and hopefully reach the Post Season where then anything might happen. Well, they didn’t and it hasn’t ! Under the current conditions, DeWitt isn’t going to either. It’s just too expensive to really go for it for him.

Agree - getting one more piece after Q in 2022, (and having an experienced manager instead of Oli) and that game 1 looks completely different. Win that and we have a chance in game 3 to eliminate the Phillies and then our entire October could have been flipped upside down. That's on Mo going halfway and going cheap on his manager hire.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Its the St. Louis Cardinals and the NL Central.

If this franchise can't at least compete every season in this division then you've got real problems and now they do.

If people can't see this then they're on the wrong forum.

Yes. They have real problems. Which they are addressing via a rebuild of the farm system. If people can't see this they are in the wrong forum.

Uh huh.

What team wins without generational players?

Do we have one in the organization now? How long until you draft one if ever?

Who from the organization can we trade to obtain such potential?

This franchise has never won a championship without one.

Yes we need a franchise quality player to anchor the team. We can't afford to buy one on the open market so we need LOTS of prospects and luck to develop one or more.