woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am
He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.
I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.
2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game
When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.
More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.
All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.
BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.
The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.
Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.
As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.
Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.
I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.
In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.
You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.
Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.
I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.
My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.
Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.
Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.
Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.
You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.
You listed the top managers and one of them won 52% of his games and another lost more than he won. Btw, Bochy had a losing season in 4 of his last 6 seasons and a fifth had 81 wins. So, not just the Padres.
A Giants team rebuilding.
So it’s the roster then. Got it
No, its not solely the roster. It takes a good roster and a good manager to have sustained success. Look at the Yankees in the late 90s and early 2000s. Great roster, good manager. Since Torre left? Still a great roster, but only one ring in 24 years. Look at Boston the year Cora was out. They were a wreck. He returns, back in post season. What has Houston done since Baker left? Zero post season wins. Teams with good rosters typically hire the best managers to guide them. Your argument is basically saying [fork]ing Fredbird could've won World Series managing in place of LaRussa.
woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am
He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.
I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.
2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game
When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.
More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.
All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.
BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.
The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.
Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.
As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.
Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.
I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.
In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.
You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.
Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.
I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.
My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.
Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.
Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.
Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.
You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.
You listed the top managers and one of them won 52% of his games and another lost more than he won. Btw, Bochy had a losing season in 4 of his last 6 seasons and a fifth had 81 wins. So, not just the Padres.
A Giants team rebuilding.
So it’s the roster then. Got it
No, its not solely the roster. It takes a good roster and a good manager to have sustained success. Look at the Yankees in the late 90s and early 2000s. Great roster, good manager. Since Torre left? Still a great roster, but only one ring in 24 years. Look at Boston the year Cora was out. They were a wreck. He returns, back in post season. What has Houston done since Baker left? Zero post season wins. Teams with good rosters typically hire the best managers to guide them. Your argument is basically saying [fork]ing Fredbird could've won World Series managing in place of LaRussa.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying. What I am saying is the roster is far more important. Matheny took other cardinals to the WS two years after LaRussa left. The astros won a WS just 5 years before Bakers team won. Joe Madden won a WS with the cubs and got fired 3 seasons later (they say it was mutual, it was not).
Joe Torre had zero success as a manager in STL and became a legendary manager in NY. What was the difference? Did he learn how to manage all the sudden?
Overall, here is my point, I don’t think Bruce bochy or Tony larussa wins many more, if any, additional games than Marmols team won this season. Now, it is certainly possible LaRussa has more success with the 2022 team, bc he wouldn’t have pitched an injured Helsley. As long as you stray from making really dumb decisions like that, the game is ultimately decided by the players, give or take a few games out of 162
I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.
2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game
When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.
More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.
All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.
BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.
The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.
Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.
As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.
Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.
I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.
In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.
You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.
Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.
I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.
My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.
Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.
Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.
Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.
You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.
You listed the top managers and one of them won 52% of his games and another lost more than he won. Btw, Bochy had a losing season in 4 of his last 6 seasons and a fifth had 81 wins. So, not just the Padres.
A Giants team rebuilding.
So it’s the roster then. Got it
No, its not solely the roster. It takes a good roster and a good manager to have sustained success. Look at the Yankees in the late 90s and early 2000s. Great roster, good manager. Since Torre left? Still a great roster, but only one ring in 24 years. Look at Boston the year Cora was out. They were a wreck. He returns, back in post season. What has Houston done since Baker left? Zero post season wins. Teams with good rosters typically hire the best managers to guide them. Your argument is basically saying [fork]ing Fredbird could've won World Series managing in place of LaRussa.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying. What I am saying is the roster is far more important. Matheny took other cardinals to the WS two years after LaRussa left. The astros won a WS just 5 years before Bakers team won. Joe Madden won a WS with the cubs and got fired 3 seasons later (they say it was mutual, it was not).
Joe Torre had zero success as a manager in STL and became a legendary manager in NY. What was the difference? Did he learn how to manage all the sudden?
Overall, here is my point, I don’t think Bruce bochy or Tony larussa wins many more, if any, additional games than Marmols team won this season. Now, it is certainly possible LaRussa has more success with the 2022 team, bc he wouldn’t have pitched an injured Helsley. As long as you stray from making really dumb decisions like that, the game is ultimately decided by the players, give or take a few games out of 162
I agree the roster is extremely important. But teams with great rosters hire really good managers. The 2000-2006 Cardinals would not have employed an inexperienced Marmol.
And TLR would absolutely win more than Marmol. He would've forced Mozeliak to build a better roster.
And Torre did well in 91, 92, 93 considering his roster. It wasn't until AB went cheap in 95 that he struggled.
