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rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

Shady wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:17 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:30 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

It all comes down to the fact that this team has horrible roster construction. We have all pointed this out numerous times. It has no anchor bat. OK, Pujols was a generational hitter and we don't expect him, but someone who a consistent threat in the middle of the order, who doesn't clog the basepaths, and is at least an average defender at his position, preferably corner OF. Guys like WC and Burley are complimentary pieces, they are not the bat you build the order around. Plus, we have a bunch of 1B/DH types. Need I list them all yet again? WC, Burley, Gorman, IH, etc... Gorman is not a good fielder, sorry. Burley catches everything he gets to, and has a pretty good arm, but he has limited range. He would actually be a pretty good first baseman if he just got to play there. Oh, but wait, you have WC there because he is a mediocre catcher and you don't want him injured. IH can't throw anyone out so he isn't the catcher. Gorman is a terrible third baseman, and barely adequate a 2B. JW has not yet developed into that corner OFer who can hit. Noot is oft injured and very inconsistent. Church actually looks like he should get a long look in CF, who knows. Winn is your anchor at SS, but he really should be a number 7 or 8 hitter. Saggese...meh defender, maybe will hit for average given some time. There are lots of complimentary pieces, but you need at least one core bat to make everyone better and Bloom needs to sort out all the redundancies. Burley is a good trade piece to do that. If you can get WC to waive his NT, then perhaps Burley is your first basemen for a while. Who knows, but this mess needs to be sorted out.

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:38 am

Shady wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:17 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:42 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:38 am Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

Exactly. As I said above, we have a team full of role players and there is a lot of redundancy among them. Hopefully Bloom can find one good middle of the order hitter (or develop one) and some of the redundancy is cleared for places we have huge holes, like starting pitching. We shall see. As I said in the Winn thread, he has HUGE value as the anchor of your D. You just want him to hit #7 or 8, but our lineup is not good, so he hits higher up. Burleson may have the most value as a trade chip... maybe. Other teams can see who he is too.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:42 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:38 am

Shady wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:17 am

rbirules wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:11 am

Adam2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:03 am

Cranny wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:51 am

Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:42 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:48 amAgree... as good a hitter as he is this year he's not elite bc he doesn't have the power (yet?), and he's only worth 1.5 WAR. Maybe as a DH he can push that to 2.5-3 WAR.

IMO he has played himself into one of the team's best trade chips, and they should sell high on him. His hitting skills are redundant with Donovan and Nootbaar, and he doesn't have Gorman's power.

Yea, if the guy had some power I'd be higher on him, but you're right. His skill set is more in like with what I'd like to see from a slick fielder and/or a guy who can run a little bit. But for a guy who needs to be at 1B or DH, that's typically a position where you want more of a power hitter.

Credit to Burleson for doing what he's doing, but he's gotta hit for more power.

24 home runs in 154 games at AAA. 21 home runs in 152 games with the Cards last season. 16 home runs in 119 games so far this season.

How many do you want him to hit?

If he's at first minimum 25-30. Cards don't have that player though

Pretty much this. If he's a starting 1B or DH, he needs to hit for a lot more power than 20 HRs per season, especially given his lack of walks. He's a player with great bat to ball skills unfortunately that skill is stuck in the body of a player that has to play a corner spot (and ideally 1B or DH) which requires a higher baseline of hitting performance. Alec is going to struggle to exceed that baseline without hitting for more power (or again, walking more). If we had some stars up the middle that could ease the burden on corner players he might be able to be a 1B hitting 6th in the lineup as a 125-130 wRC+ hitter with moderate power, but we don't have that right now. As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team.

"As is, he's ideally a part time player, or rather role player, on a really good team". You are reaching there. Burleson's bat would play regularly for any current team.

Role player, who is limited to 1B or DH ideally, or corner OF on a very limited basis. Sure most teams could use a player with a 124 wRC+ in one of those spots, but they aren't a cornerstone player (i.e. hitting 2nd, 3rd, or 4th), they are a role player that ideally hits 5th or even 6th on a really good team.

What top team would Burleson be a "core player" for? Role players and part time players (especially LH ones) play regularly, which is what I was saying. I'm not even sure we are disagreeing. He's a solid player, but not a star.

Exactly. As I said above, we have a team full of role players and there is a lot of redundancy among them. Hopefully Bloom can find one good middle of the order hitter (or develop one) and some of the redundancy is cleared for places we have huge holes, like starting pitching. We shall see. As I said in the Winn thread, he has HUGE value as the anchor of your D. You just want him to hit #7 or 8, but our lineup is not good, so he hits higher up. Burleson may have the most value as a trade chip... maybe. Other teams can see who he is too.

Rocket Scientist wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:50 am Chip said last night mid game the Burleson was one of five MLB players that have hit 270+ against both left handed pitching and right handed pitching. That makes him elite in 2025 season. The guy can hit.

Then of course all the folks that said he couldn't hit lefthanders raise your hands.

swatski wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:10 am Reminds me of a young Schwarber. Needs to get in better shape.

smilinjoefission wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 11:20 am

swatski wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:10 am Reminds me of a young Schwarber. Needs to get in better shape.

Schwarber is a K machine...Burley isn't. He's a Kruk-lite, just doesn't have the high batting average down yet, but he's working on it.

ClassicO wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:08 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:57 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:58 am

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 07:39 am No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 11:37 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:08 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:57 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:58 am

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 07:39 am No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

I guess I'm old time. I value a player by the stats you that you can see day in, day out. Batting avg, and RBI is what wins games. All of the different elements of the WAR trilogy are basically "what if" equations.

Give me a player that consistently hits .280 +. I dont care what his WAR is. Just get him more RBI situations. Until they change the rules, games are still won by runs scored. Haven't seen one yet that has been won because team "A" had better players vs replacement players. Otherwise, no need at all to even play the game.

And it then begs me to get an answer to this question. Why would you NOT value batting average? Give me a lineup with 7 players with a batting avg .280 +, and you've got a dominant team.

dugoutrex wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 11:46 am lots on here think a walk isn't the same as a hit

ecleme22 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 11:45 am

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 11:37 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 10:08 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:57 am

3dender wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:05 am

Lloyd Braun wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:58 am

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 07:39 am No doubt he is proving to be a true major league hitter. Every part of him, including physique, continues to remind me of Burkman. Always puts the bat on the ball, can go with the pitch, and showing decent power.

I've been calling him Baby Berkman since last year. If he can get into that 30 homer territory, he could be Burley Berkman. Breath of fresh air, in a league full of .230 hitters.

Really shows you how much BA is worth when he still only has 1.5 WAR as a .300 hitter.

WAR isn't a real stat. It's a made up metric, devised by people that claim batting average is meaningless.

Of course, it doesn't value BA. It was designed to ignore it.

First, you're wrong - WAR uses batting average by incorporating it into the "Batting Runs" component of its calculation.
Second, if you don't like WAR, what stats do you use to gauge the overall value of a player = hitting, fielding, and running, and even something for positional value*? (Please don't say batting average.)
The last I heard, the teams that score the most runs in a game wins, so how do you measure how well a player contributes to scoring or preventing runs?
It's easy to criticize, hard to be thoughtful.


* If you value a catcher, SS or CF the same as other positions, it's a dumb comparison for value to the team)?

I guess I'm old time. I value a player by the stats you that you can see day in, day out. Batting avg, and RBI is what wins games. All of the different elements of the WAR trilogy are basically "what if" equations.

Give me a player that consistently hits .280 +. I dont care what his WAR is. Just get him more RBI situations. Until they change the rules, games are still won by runs scored. Haven't seen one yet that has been won because team "A" had better players vs replacement players. Otherwise, no need at all to even play the game.

And it then begs me to get an answer to this question. Why would you NOT value batting average? Give me a lineup with 7 players with a batting avg .280 +, and you've got a dominant team.

Do you know OBP?