Saggese looks solid at 3B and 2B defensively

[AnExParrot]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

[Cranny]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

[AnExParrot]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

[Cranny]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

What’s the average age and years at the AAA level for AAA players, AEP?

[renostl]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

You are correct in our inability to predict the future. To predict a future progression is even
more difficult and that's what happens with players that are producing.
Currently if we include Saggese, the team would have Walker 22% below average, Scott 25%, Pages 33% below, Gorman, Winn, Nootbaar, and Pozo is you want to exchange a C, are all at average +/- 4, Saggese is 26% below average.
Now, I am not coming from a negative spot on this. Things can an will change. There's multiple points here.

When you have 6-7 positions 3 of which need to improve some 25% points just to become average
it doesn't leave many positions to get that well above average production.

Counting on all to improve is as overly optimistic as the negative posts are pessimistic.

As of today, Saggese, IMO, is an lower cost alternative to Donovan that doesn't produce as well.
Why do that for what is MLB wise a small amount of money. Today that's only $2 million. Maybe in 2027
BDs last season it's $10 million.

The Cards are in a position that they do not have to make any decisions at all regarding any of these players.
There's both pluses and minuses to that. You're aware of those.

They should though, again JMO, start choosing a direction. The more positions they're good with average
production the fewer positions for above average production. We may be fine with SS, CF, and C, adding
much more like 1B, 3B and RF to that sounds like a path to .500.

Speaking of Donovan. Is anyone concerned with Donovan's recent offensive drop off?

The team does not have a lead off hitter.

At the risk of sounding like at batting position guy lead off would be the spot I will bend
on. BD isn't ideal there. He seems to change his approach and his speed there limits the team.
That's not just SB speed. 1st-3rd, always scoring on a hit from 2B, scoring from 1st on 2B etc.

Winn or Scott would work but they currently don't carry enough OBP.
April Nootbaar if he can be found anywhere.

[Absolut]

And he's adequate at SS. He's still only 23. His bat will likely come around. He's fitting in nicely with the reset. At least as a utiilty-type player.

hmm, where have i seen this thread before

Pay attention. This is more inclusive.

more inclusive? you typed 1 line

This thread is open to all people. It’s inclusive.

[hullie]

You did this same thread topic just two weeks ago: viewtopic.php?t=1514943

Well he is an idiot

[AnExParrot]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

What’s the average age and years at the AAA level for AAA players, AEP?

You're the one hanging your hat on his age being more important than his (lack of)success at that level - why don't you tell me?

Already said I take those things into consideration; it doesn't change the fact that a guy hitting 10% below league average is no one to be bragging about.

[Cusecards]

I guess he’s “solid” at 3B in comparison to Gorman?
He’s clearly behind Donovan and JJ at 2B.
And unless his bat becomes a bigger threat also probably behind Gorman also.
Then you have Arenado.
Best guess is he becomes a solid utility guy which is a plus.

Those 26 home runs in 2023 and 20 home runs in 2024 are nice.

Absolutely! His raw power would be very welcome as the team needs middle of the order bats!
Unfortunately when we speak of 5 Tool players Gorman only possesses one of them, hitting for power.
He is below average/average in the other four.
That needs to change or he will be on the outside looking in!
Rooting for that change!

[Cranny]

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

What’s the average age and years at the AAA level for AAA players, AEP?

You're the one hanging your hat on his age being more important than his (lack of)success at that level - why don't you tell me?

Already said I take those things into consideration; it doesn't change the fact that a guy hitting 10% below league average is no one to be bragging about.

He was over 3 years younger than the average AAA player in 2024, AEP. He's only 23 now. If age doesn't mean anything to you, we don't have anything to talk about.

[AnExParrot]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Since I had time to check, I decided to take a look at the International league leaderboard for 2024 - of the seven qualified 21 and 22 year olds in the Int'l league that season, two of them were 21, 4 of them had better OPS than Saggese, One had a .785 OPS the other three were above .800 and between 10 and 32% above league average(10, 15, 15, and 32).

Again, no reason to be bragging about a guy who was 10% below league average, regardless of his age.

[AnExParrot]

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

What’s the average age and years at the AAA level for AAA players, AEP?

You're the one hanging your hat on his age being more important than his (lack of)success at that level - why don't you tell me?

Already said I take those things into consideration; it doesn't change the fact that a guy hitting 10% below league average is no one to be bragging about.

He was over 3 years younger than the average AAA player in 2024, AEP. He's only 23 now. If age doesn't mean anything to you, we don't have anything to talk about.

How many times do I have to say age matters? Stop trolling.

[Cranny]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Since I had time to check, I decided to take a look at the International league leaderboard for 2024 - of the seven qualified 21 and 22 year olds in the Int'l league that season, two of them were 21, 4 of them had better OPS than Saggese, One had a .785 OPS the other three were above .800 and between 10 and 32% above league average(10, 15, 15, and 32).

Again, no reason to be bragging about a guy who was 10% below league average, regardless of his age.

Sorry, I like to brag about a guy who 2 years ago was named the best second baseman in the entire minor leagues - all levels, all organizations. And he was young for that level. I think he's going to be a starter in our IF some day.
And I have a right to have that opinion. Like you have a right to yours.

[craviduce]

IMHO Saggese could become a productive starter on the IF. He just turned 23 in April, and no fan can predict how good or bad he will be as he matures.

Huh?

Where on earth is he going to be a "productive starter on the IF"?

1st Base---No (WillyC)
2nd Base---No (JJW)
SS---No (Winn)
3rd Base---No (NADO/Gorman/Donny)

I get it, you absolutely love any player making close to the major league minimum since it makes your hero BDWJr smile.

But Saggese is JAG w/NO CHANCE of being a "productive starter on the IF".

We all have our opinions, rock. And that’s what they are. I think Saggese will someday be the starting 3rd baseman. JJ at 2nd.

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Since I had time to check, I decided to take a look at the International league leaderboard for 2024 - of the seven qualified 21 and 22 year olds in the Int'l league that season, two of them were 21, 4 of them had better OPS than Saggese, One had a .785 OPS the other three were above .800 and between 10 and 32% above league average(10, 15, 15, and 32).

Again, no reason to be bragging about a guy who was 10% below league average, regardless of his age.

Sorry, I like to brag about a guy who 2 years ago was named the best second baseman in the entire minor leagues - all levels, all organizations. And he was young for that level. I think he's going to be a starter in our IF some day.
And I have a right to have that opinion. Like you have a right to yours.

he wasn't named the best 2B in the minors. I believe he was named Texas League MVP. Which covered 1 league in AA. There are 3 leagues in AA.

[Youboughtit]

And he's adequate at SS. He's still only 23. His bat will likely come around. He's fitting in nicely with the reset. At least as a utiilty-type player.

I think there are two things impacting his future as a Cardinal. One, the Arenado problem. If he stays he probably ( although he shouldn’t) occupies third. Two, if Gorman can end the season strong with bat and improve defense he is probably an option at third before Saggese.

With JJ coming up. Arenado blocking his path and if there is an improved Gorman I don’t see him sticking. Probably traded.

I could see a Gorman/Sagese platoon at 3B. Wish Saggese could also help out in the outfield.

Donovan will play everyday somewhere

[Cranny]

C'mon man

Tell me who Saggesse is going to displace on the 2026 infield?

If that weak bat is our everyday 3rd baseman, then this team is in more trouble than ever before.

What you don’t think his .478 OPS since returning from the minors will be the 3B answer?

Nothing like judging a 23 year old on his first 176 major league plate appearances.

we're only asking you to back up your claim...where you judged based off a 2023 season in the minors, mostly in another organization, that Saggese is going to be Great.

Dial it back a lot, Cranny. Gaslight else where. Sanctimony not needed.

I like Saggese. It’s my opinion and we all have a right to our opinions. He’s a down and dirty ball player. I like that. And since you’re an expert on the minors. How many 22 year olds have a .752 OPS their first full season at AAA. In 2024, after a great season at AA as a 21 year old in 2023?

By the way, when did you start moderating?

Dunno how many, but since that .752 OPS equated to being about 10% below league average, it's really not something you should bragging about for Saggese, at age 22 or any other age.

Great. So you don’t take age or amount of experience at a specific level into consideration?
Good thing you’re not in the industry.

Of course I take those things into consideration. I still know that being 10% below league average, at any age at any level with any amount of experience isn't something someone should be bragging about. It's a great thing you aren't in the industry, particularly and especially for the Cardinals.

What’s the average age and years at the AAA level for AAA players, AEP?

You're the one hanging your hat on his age being more important than his (lack of)success at that level - why don't you tell me?

Already said I take those things into consideration; it doesn't change the fact that a guy hitting 10% below league average is no one to be bragging about.

He was over 3 years younger than the average AAA player in 2024, AEP. He's only 23 now. If age doesn't mean anything to you, we don't have anything to talk about.

How many times do I have to say age matters? Stop trolling.

I'm not "trolling" at all. I just have a different opinion than you do about this player.