Sell or hold

[Talkin' Baseball]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

And then when that doesn't get you anywhere in 2026, you:

(1) Failed to get as much in prospects for Gray, Contreras, etc. when you could.
(2) Handcuffed yourself to new, expensive, long term contracts for a SP and OF who may well be bad contracts when you are ready to compete again in 3, 4, 5 years.

Yeah, remember Helsley and Fedde? Even Nootbaar last offseason had about 7 times the trade value (per Baseball Trade Values) as he has now. The good news is, I think we are dealing with a more decisive group now. We will see.

[ecleme22]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

Go to google and look up 'mlb rebuilds the last 15 years.'

Do some in depth studying. Dive into the Cubs in 2012, the Astros a little later and so on.

Then when you feel you have grasped the concept, rejoin us on CardsTalk.

[CCard]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

Go to google and look up 'mlb rebuilds the last 15 years.'

Do some in depth studying. Dive into the Cubs in 2012, the Astros a little later and so on.

Then when you feel you have grasped the concept, rejoin us on CardsTalk.

That's a great idea genius. Tell me about all those losing seasons before the cubs (who spent all that money poaching talent) finally, luckily won a world series. Also tell me about the Astro's cheating scandal that has stained their World Series trophy while you're at it. Finally, teams like Pittsburgh, Miami, Cincy, etc etc have been in perpetual "rebuild mode" and what have they achieved for this except for losing seasons and lost fan base. Maybe you should learn to think with your brain instead of running your mouth. LOL

[CCard]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

And then when that doesn't get you anywhere in 2026, you:

(1) Failed to get as much in prospects for Gray, Contreras, etc. when you could.
(2) Handcuffed yourself to new, expensive, long term contracts for a SP and OF who may well be bad contracts when you are ready to compete again in 3, 4, 5 years.

1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.
2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.
3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.
4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

[CCard]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

Mostly agree, CCard.

Keep Gray. Add a top pitcher via FA to pair with him. Follow that with Liberatore and McGreevy and make a trade for a #3 type arm.

Start Walker in AAA and let him find some success before coming back up. If that takes all year, so be it.

Trade Nado (time to move on). Trade Noot. Donovan, maybe? Good player, but maybe he can help us get that #3 pitcher.

Gorman, in my opinion, doesn’t have what it takes.
Go sign Eugenio Suarez.

Leave Winn, Scott and add JJW up the middle, with Herrera behind the dish.

Go get a thumper for corner OF.

Wetherholt 2B
Herrera C
Contreras 1B
Suarez 3B
Corner OFer???
Burleson DH
Winn SS
Church RF
Scott CF

I hear you on Arenado, I just don't know that even after his decline that the Cards have a better option at third. If you're trying to win then he's plays third unless you get a substantial offer for him. As for Donovan, he's a good player but is redundant with Saggese, I think. So it depends on what you can get. I think it's still a little early to give up on Gorman, he showed so much promise at one time. Maybe he turns a corner? I'd give him another year to produce. Walker? I think you got to start him in right and see what he can do to improve. If he's (bleep) the bed by the all-star break then send him down. He just has too much promise and nothing really to prove in AAA. One thing we whole-heartedly agree on is they need more premium pitching. Until that happens they're just going through the motions.

[ecleme22]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

Go to google and look up 'mlb rebuilds the last 15 years.'

Do some in depth studying. Dive into the Cubs in 2012, the Astros a little later and so on.

Then when you feel you have grasped the concept, rejoin us on CardsTalk.

That's a great idea genius. Tell me about all those losing seasons before the cubs (who spent all that money poaching talent) finally, luckily won a world series. Also tell me about the Astro's cheating scandal that has stained their World Series trophy while you're at it. Finally, teams like Pittsburgh, Miami, Cincy, etc etc have been in perpetual "rebuild mode" and what have they achieved for this except for losing seasons and lost fan base. Maybe you should learn to think with your brain instead of running your mouth. LOL

Bloom: "We are in a rebuild mode."
You: "Okay, so we have Gray. Now we just need one or two more pitchers to compete in 2026!"

Also you: "To win, you don't subtract on field talent!"


You understand what 'rebuild' means, right? And yes, one of the first moves of a rebuild is to accumulate prospects. This is rebuild 101. And no, it not something only done by the Pirates. It's done by EVERYBODY. Even the Yankees did it in 2016...

[CCard]

LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

I don’t understand this “ he doesn’t have even power to play 3rd base “ stuff!
If Wetherholt were to play 3rd base and Donovan 2nd, would you still have a problem?
Donovan hits in the clutch, hits for a high average, and gets on base well, but….he doesn’t hit enough home runs to play 3rd base? To me that’s not very logical, especially if the lack of power is made up at another position.

Not at all. Wetherholt could be the 3rd base power bat they need and that would make Arenado expendable (assuming Wehterholt can hold his own defensively). I like Donny a lot, he's probably a better player than Saggese at this time. But Saggese makes a lot less and is redundant, while Donny is a pretty good trade chip. For all his good hitting and pretty good all around position play, he still has little power. That's not a deal breaker of course because he excels at other positions too. The philosophy that you have power at the corners and defense up the middle is an age old baseball adage. I could easily see Wetherholt take over at third and provide power and defense. But lest we not forget, he has't tasted major league pitching yet either. That's a big jump.

[redbirdfan51]

Agree with all the holds, but I would also hope the Cards would hold on to Donovan . The only exception is if the Cards are overwhelmed with an offer they can't refuse. He may be the most valuable asset we have. There is criticism on this poast for holding Noot, Walker, and Gorman. Their trade value isn't that high now as opposed of their potential. They should be on hold. I think Scott could be included in that category. Cards really need a good young RH power hitter to go along with Herrera. The main focus could well be on adding starting pitching. I only see 2 starters currently with that being Lib and McGreevy.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Agree with all the holds, but I would also hope the Cards would hold on to Donovan . The only exception is if the Cards are overwhelmed with an offer they can't refuse. He may be the most valuable asset we have. There is criticism on this poast for holding Noot, Walker, and Gorman. Their trade value isn't that high now as opposed of their potential. They should be on hold. I think Scott could be included in that category. Cards really need a good young RH power hitter to go along with Herrera. The main focus could well be on adding starting pitching. I only see 2 starters currently with that being Lib and McGreevy.

There are times when changing what you are doing provides more value than waiting and realizing the very highest price. This may be one of those times. I think it was General Patton who said, "A good plan, violently executed today, is better than a perfect plan executed next week".

[Rojo Johnson]

Noot must go. Tired of seeing his sorry asz mediocre-ing up the OF. Turn the page and get rid of these Moe hangers-on. I don’t think the fans are going to want to watch the Moe level talent squad any longer and they sure aren’t going to pay MLB prices to watch those duds play baseball. Can we trade Noot to Japan? BTW, you aren’t going to get anything for him because he isn’t worth anything.

[ClassicO]

As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Noot must go. Tired of seeing his sorry asz mediocre-ing up the OF. Turn the page and get rid of these Moe hangers-on. I don’t think the fans are going to want to watch the Moe level talent squad any longer and they sure aren’t going to pay MLB prices to watch those duds play baseball. Can we trade Noot to Japan? BTW, you aren’t going to get anything for him because he isn’t worth anything.

Noot still has some value. It just isn't what it once was.

[Talkin' Baseball]

As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

There IS a market there. We should not be deceived about what that market is. For many of those mentioned, when we find out what the market is, they should be traded. It is time to re-shuffle the Cards.

[2ninr]

As others have noted -- you can't "sell" unless the market is there. Other than Gray, Winn, Contreras and Donovan, I don't see any of these players being bringing a lot on the market this offseason. And Winn, despite a weak bat, is not someone they can afford to trade.

I've heard Melville and others say they need to trade some of these for an "All-Star power hitter." Seriously?? Name such a trade!

Without actual trade suggestions/predictions, it's too simplistic just to suggest "trades." Ex: Trade Noot. For what? Another Drew Rom? No thanks.

There IS a market there. We should not be deceived about what that market is. For many of those mentioned, when we find out what the market is, they should be traded. It is time to re-shuffle the Cards.

Even if it's a neutral deal.

[mattmitchl44]

1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

[ecleme22]

1. It takes two to dance. What "prospects" do you think you can get? Especially with those contracts. No team is going to give up premium prospects when they can sign their own free agents and keep their young cheap talent.

That's why the Cardinals should use the 2026 payroll to eat most of what is left on Gray's, Arenado's, Contreras', etc. contracts instead of spending it on other FAs this offseason.

2. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Some contracts pan out some don't. The fact is at least you try to win. You can't seem to understand that concept.

I understand they are in no position to win in 2026 anyway, so trying to spend money now to do so is pointless.

3. Tanking is an anathema to baseball and it's fans. It should be avoided at all costs. It bastardizes the game into the haves and have nots just as much as free agency. Free agency is a players right though and tanking is an owners attempt at cheaping the fans for profit.

Blah, blah, blah.

4. Lastly, and I've explained this over and over, there is no guarantee that a team will even make the playoffs, let alone become some fabled juggernaut, by doing this rebuild (tank). You only set yourself and fans up for constant losing and non-competive teams by doing it. The answer lies in-between as most things usually do. You need to draft and develop young players, it's true, but you also need talent and the best way to get it without severe losing is through free agency.

And they need to spend AFTER they know they've drafted and developed the young talent necessary to potentially be competitive, not before.

It surprises me how some people don't even understand that modest first step in rebuilding.

It's not like people are suggesting trading Winn/JJ, etc. There are people that think even trading Arenado and Gray is a bridge too far. As if trading them suddenly makes us the Pirates.

Weird. And cringey