STLtoday.com

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

Melville wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:17 pm It has been said that tact is the ability to make a point without making an enemy.
Perhaps Shildt lacked that ability.
He should have contacted me for a consultation.
I could have helped him.
And reduced his stress level in the process.

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

ClassicO wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:44 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

Yeah. I don't think Oli is nearly as bad as others, but that doesn't mean I think he's top-notch. Spend smart money on player development, international free agents and a few supplemental FAs -- and if successful, a lot of managers could be fine.

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:28 am

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.

Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.

I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.

My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 10:19 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:28 am

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.

Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.

I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.

My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.

Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.

Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.

Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.

You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 21:41 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 10:19 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:28 am

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.

Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.

I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.

My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.

Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.

Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.

Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.

You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.

You listed the top managers and one of them won 52% of his games and another lost more than he won. Btw, Bochy had a losing season in 4 of his last 6 seasons and a fifth had 81 wins. So, not just the Padres.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 23:20 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 21:41 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 10:19 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑17 Oct 2025 08:28 am

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

You're picking what many perceive to be some of the best Managers since the 1980s and extrapolating that across all Managers. But, I'm glad you did, because I think I can make a decent point here.

Bochy has 4 WS rings but an overall below .500 record as a manager over 28 seasons. Average division finish was 3rd place. How does one square the circle of 4 rings and 14 of 28 seasons with a losing record?
Piniella has one ring in 23 seasons and a career winning % of .513, avg of 84 wins/season. Average division finish was 3rd place. He did not win with the Yankees, Mariners, Cubs, or Rays
Baker has the highest winning % at .540, which is still only 87 wins/season. He has one ring in 26 years of managing. Average division finish was 2nd place (pretty good). One WS appearance with Giants in 10 seasons, 0 with Cubs, Reds, Nationals over 11 seasons. Finally got to the mountaintop with the Astros in year 25.

I'll refute the claim these guys won everywhere they went. They didn't. Over a large sample size of seasons, these highly regarded managers ended up slightly below to a little above .500 and a combined 6 rings over 77 seasons.

My conclusion is the typical Manager in MLB does not have a significant impact, and the best Managers don't have a big one.

Baker made the post season in San Francisco, Cincinnati. Chicago, Washington, and Houston. That is winning everywhere he's been.

Pinella won a WS in Cincinnati. Set the record for single season wins in Seattle (while making multiple post seasons). And made two post seasons in Chicago. True, the Yankees and Rays didn't get to the playoffs.

Bochy's record is largely due to San Diego having some horrible teams. But even at that, he took them to multiple post seasons. Won rings in San Francisco and Texas.

You are discrediting my examples with a silly argument that my list were among the best. So what? They were managers that made a difference. You think Marmol takes any of those teams and has the same success? No way.

You listed the top managers and one of them won 52% of his games and another lost more than he won. Btw, Bochy had a losing season in 4 of his last 6 seasons and a fifth had 81 wins. So, not just the Padres.

A Giants team rebuilding.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 23:02 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 21:51 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 18:29 pm

woofy25 wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 11:05 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑16 Oct 2025 08:01 am

woofy25 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025 10:00 am He retired with having made the playoffs every year of his career in which he started the season as the Manager. Tough to beat.

I could have made the playoffs coaching the Padres. Look at the lineup and the pitching.

2019 - three guys who averaged over 30 HRs - got destroyed by the Nats in NLDS
2020 = 30-28 record and lost right away in WC.
2021- Cards had the best WAR for OF in the league the one year DC. TON and Bader all played great. Goldy and Arenado. Dumb moves in getting bounced in WC game

When you look deeper, he's succeeded with good teams and taken them nowhere in the playoffs.

More than that -- when you're a manager, or any boss, you must get along with both the front office and staff.

All I said was he made the playoffs every season he was a Manager. You can qualify it however you want, but that doesn't take away the fact that's what he did. I don't know how many Managers, if any, can claim that.
The Mets were stacked this year. How'd they do? The Yankees are stacked every year and haven't won a WS since 2009. The Phillies are loaded as well and haven't won since '08.

BTW, the 2019-2021 Cardinals rosters weren't all that impressive.
2019 - One All-Star, 3 guys with an OPS+ over 100, 4 if you want to count Edman. Flaherty was great, Hudson was good though a rookie who walked too many. 3/5 of their rotation was garbage with Wainwright, Mikolas and Wacha
2020 - Brad Miller was the second best hitter on the team. Literally. Weird season, throw it out for all I care.
2021 - Offense was much better, but the pitching was a mess. They had two guys throw more than 100 innings. Carlos Martinez was third on the team in starts with 16.

The Padres have had suspensions and injuries to their best players that drastically handcuffed Shildt. He was rarely playing with a full deck.

Now, it appears his approach with players and coaches was completely unacceptable and indefensible. If that's how it was in STL, then Mo had no choice but to do what he did.

As I've said before, a manager has less than 5% +/- effect on the team's record, so it was and is all overblown. Pundits think it's less than 5%. Schildt = meh.

Then, I’m guessing you’re neutral on whether Oli is the manager or anyone, really. I feel similar to you.

I do not believe this at all. There's a reason some guys accumulate HOF credentials as manager. Dusty Baker won everywhere he managed. TLR won everywhere he managed. Same for Bochy and Pinella.

In today's game things are so scripted that managers have lost some freedom to impact games. Analytics have dulled that aspect. But good managers still lead locker rooms. That alone leads to additional wins.

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑18 Oct 2025 00:53 am The Randy Arozarena video of Shildt's elegant post game speech in Atlanta should be played on the video board during every Cardinals home game. That'd fire everyone up!

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑18 Oct 2025 00:53 am The Randy Arozarena video of Shildt's elegant post game speech in Atlanta should be played on the video board during every Cardinals home game. That'd fire everyone up!