Three things that handcuffed the Cardinals this season

[Mort Gage]

1) Another Top of the Rotation Starter
2) Pages, A light hitting catcher
3) Burleson, Should have been replaced with a real Middle of the Order Bat

"Burleson, Should have been replaced with a real Middle of the Order Bat". Whom would you have replaced Burleson with?

It would be, impossible to, replace Alex Burleson. With, his, "bat to ball" skills, No one, I repeat no one, puts Burly in a corner.

You can't actually name anyone can you?

Neato. Your portly lust object is the best option on a terrible offense. Congrats. This is a multi-year rebuild where Bloom will need to draft better and trade mediocrities like St. Alec for players with upside. If they are in A, AA, so be it.

So, if you feel there should be an upgrade from Burleson. What about Walker and Gorman?

If those two don't produce soon then they should be in the same boat. The old model of clinging desperately to mediocre players and ultimately dumping them for middle relievers needs to go.

[rockondlouie]

1-BDWJr
2-Mo
3-Oli

Beat me to it, Rock. Call me crazy, but a real dugout leader in the manager's chair has this team in a wild card position.

Disagree. I don’t like Oli, but he has a bunch of clowns to work with, especially his starting pitching. I think he’s overachieved. I also think this may be the one time in his baseball life where Oli is better than the players he was given. These guys are not decent.

C'mon RoJo

Oli is bottom of the league when it comes to managers.

He s u c k s.

[moose-and-squirrel]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

[Shady]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

[JuanAgosto]

1-BDWJr
2-Mo
3-Oli

Beat me to it, Rock. Call me crazy, but a real dugout leader in the manager's chair has this team in a wild card position.

Disagree. I don’t like Oli, but he has a bunch of clowns to work with, especially his starting pitching. I think he’s overachieved. I also think this may be the one time in his baseball life where Oli is better than the players he was given. These guys are not decent.

A good manager with leadership skills would get this group into a WC spot. Its 4 games. A winner with a winning culture would absolutely do it. This current clown has a losing culture.

[greyhawk]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

[Will Munny]

Pitching

Hitting

Baserunning

[moose-and-squirrel]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

yeah, not sure if they hang onto him or not, but most likely a fill in player. some DH (altho tough as it seems that's prolly the only place for Herrera) 1b and some LF. I'm really not sold on Herrera in the OF

[DickyBennett]

BDW Jr
Mo
Oli

[greyhawk]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

yeah, not sure if they hang onto him or not, but most likely a fill in player. some DH (altho tough as it seems that's prolly the only place for Herrera) 1b and some LF. I'm really not sold on Herrera in the OF

Agree on Herrera --- my opinion as stated to park gorman (i would put him at 3b) -- walker in rf and the same spot in the batting order day to day i should have included putting herrera in lf and finding out for the rest of this season as well.

[moose-and-squirrel]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

yeah, not sure if they hang onto him or not, but most likely a fill in player. some DH (altho tough as it seems that's prolly the only place for Herrera) 1b and some LF. I'm really not sold on Herrera in the OF

Agree on Herrera --- my opinion as stated to park gorman (i would put him at 3b) -- walker in rf and the same spot in the batting order day to day i should have included putting herrera in lf and finding out for the rest of this season as well.

good take, and I agree. might as well play em and see if you can find something with them. not much to lose at this point. I worry about Herrera's legs in the OF tho

[greyhawk]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

yeah, not sure if they hang onto him or not, but most likely a fill in player. some DH (altho tough as it seems that's prolly the only place for Herrera) 1b and some LF. I'm really not sold on Herrera in the OF

Agree on Herrera --- my opinion as stated to park gorman (i would put him at 3b) -- walker in rf and the same spot in the batting order day to day i should have included putting herrera in lf and finding out for the rest of this season as well.

good take, and I agree. might as well play em and see if you can find something with them. not much to lose at this point. I worry about Herrera's legs in the OF tho

i can see that -- but i honestly think it is easier on the legs in the OF than the IF, unless you want to park him at DH. He is too young to not find out if the legs are also gonna be a problem....he can either play or he can't.

[moose-and-squirrel]

I believe we’ve learned nothing this season. We already knew most of these players were not good. Winn, Scott (defense on an offensive oriented team) and Burley as a non-starter. That’s the beginning and end of the ”kids”. We found out Gormy sucks? Only if we hadn’t been paying attention in years past. Herrera is a what? One of 4 catchers. Who puts a roster together like that? Stupids.

well, learned Herrera is not a full time catcher like they had hoped, hence the need to add 2 more catchers.

Contreras can play a pretty good 1st base.

Saggese is looking like a utility guy.

Walker started out pretty bad, then heated up. unfortunately got hurt and it cost him whatever momentum he had. can he pick it back up? or is he just inconsistent?

Same with Gorman, altho his hot streaks tend to be short lived. looks a lot better when he shortens up his 2 strike swing, but doesn't seem to do it often enough. What did they say in A League of their Own? high heat... can't lay off 'em, and can't hit em.

Noot is not the player they had hoped he be. serviceable, yes. Other than that...

Scott just can't hit enough, and baffling that a player like him never learned to bunt. head scratcher. Billy Hamilton part 2, but at least Billy could bunt

Libby seems to have hit the wall, which is not surprising in his first time thru a full starters season.
Is this Pallante's problem as well, or is this just who he is?

Winn is an everyday player that should get better.

the system just isn't producing enough ML level starting pitchers. and the ones that seem the most likely are also the ones that are hurt, Matthews aside. he just needs consistency. But if you look at Cravs minor league reports, those starters are not pretty

so, there's a few things the we learned, for better or worse

found a couple of good arms for the Pen, so that's a good thing at least.

Where do you see Burleson fitting in in the near future? The next two or three seasons/

Being the starting 1b/Dh for the White Sox or some other team of that ilk.

yeah, not sure if they hang onto him or not, but most likely a fill in player. some DH (altho tough as it seems that's prolly the only place for Herrera) 1b and some LF. I'm really not sold on Herrera in the OF

Agree on Herrera --- my opinion as stated to park gorman (i would put him at 3b) -- walker in rf and the same spot in the batting order day to day i should have included putting herrera in lf and finding out for the rest of this season as well.

good take, and I agree. might as well play em and see if you can find something with them. not much to lose at this point. I worry about Herrera's legs in the OF tho

i can see that -- but i honestly think it is easier on the legs in the OF than the IF, unless you want to park him at DH. He is too young to not find out if the legs are also gonna be a problem....he can either play or he can't.

yup, no better time than now to find out

[cardstatman]

1. Walker -18
2. Pallante -12
3. Fedde -11
4. Mikolas -11
5. King -10
6. Graceffo -9
7. Fernandez -9
8. Gorman -7
9. Roycroft -5

Oops, that is 3 lists of 3 things that handcuffed the Cardinals this season. It is also 1/3 of the roster.

92 runs below average in that list. This more than offset the few good players which the Cardinals have.

So the problem is that the Cardinals assembled only two thirds of a complete team.

[moose-and-squirrel]

1. Walker -18
2. Pallante -12
3. Fedde -11
4. Mikolas -11
5. King -10
6. Graceffo -9
7. Fernandez -9
8. Gorman -7
9. Roycroft -5

Oops, that is 3 lists of 3 things that handcuffed the Cardinals this season. It is also 1/3 of the roster.

92 runs below average in that list. This more than offset the few good players which the Cardinals have.

So the problem is that the Cardinals assembled only two thirds of a complete team.

OR, 1/3 underachieved.. didn't develop/take the next step as hoped.. got exposed..

[Futuregm2]

1) Inconsistent starting pitching staff (all of them except McGreevy)
2) Arenado (lack of offensive production at his salary)
3) Gorman and Walker ( haven't developed like was hoped for)

So the starter that has given up 4 runs or more in 4 of his 8 starts is the only consistent one?

Who's been more consistent than McGreevy?

McGreevy: 4+ runs in 4 of 8 starts
Gray: 4+ runs in 7 of 24 starts

Which one do you think is more consistent?