ESPN MLB player rankings

[Cusecards]

It’s quite possible that the Cards might have to satisfy themselves in NOT having a 30+HR hitter in the middle of their lineup.
Obviously having that power is preferred.
But....you can have a good/very good lineup centered around doubles hitters and a few guys hitting 15/20 HR’s.
I seem to recall the Royals championship team of ten years ago being that type of lineup?
No big bopper but quality guys up and down the lineup taking good AB’s.
I myself think power can be overrated.
JJ looks like a potential blossoming star?
Donovan is a solid hitter.
WC still is.
On the upswing?- Herrera, Burleson, and Winn?
Vets and Who are they/declining?- Noot and Arenado.
Young and who are they?- Walker, Gorman, Scott

Work to do.
Also some fast risers coming??(Crooks, Bernal, Baez etc)

[Futuregm2]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

[3dender]

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

Have to specify 2025 v. going forward. In 2025 the answer looks something like this:

Seager
Witt
De La Cruz
Betts
Lindor
Henderson
Perdomo
Abrams
Neto
J. Pena
(maybe) J. Wilson
(maybe) Correa

Going forward I'd probably remove Correa, Betts and Lindor from that list as they're entering their decline years, and Wilson cause there's not much track record and he's cooled off since hot 1st half. So the list would be:

Seager
Witt
De La Cruz
Henderson
Perdomo
Abrams
Neto
Pena

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

No way "all" were equal or better on your list.

Especially in the 2002/2003 seasons Renteria (.318 .380 .461 .840/183 RBI's) was better than most (boldened) on that list (sans the steroid freak who I discount) for those two seasons.

Winn will never have a season like those two.

[Futuregm2]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

No way "all" were equal or better on your list.

Especially in the 2002/2003 seasons Renteria (.318 .380 .461 .840/183 RBI's) was better than most (boldened) on that list (sans the steroid freak who I discount) for those two seasons.

Winn will never have a season like those two.

Miguel Tejada had 6 100+ RBI seasons.

Guillen from 2004-2008 hit: .308/.377/.493 with 85+ RBI in 3 of those seasons.

Young from 2004-2011 hit: .312/.360/.463 with an average of 16 HR (more than Renteria’s career high), 39 2B, and 92 RBI.

Rafael Furcal’s peak wasn’t as good as Renteria’s, but his career was at least equal. Career 96 OPS+, 4 full seasons with a 100+ OPS+. Career 39 bWAR, Renteria was at 32.

Rollins from 2004-2008 hit .286/.342/.468. He had 38 2B 20 3B 30 HR season in 2007 when he won MVP. He had a career 94 OPS+, had 6 seasons with a 100+ OPS+. And career 47.9 bWAR. Again, he was at least as good as Renteria, if not better since he did win MVP one year, albeit I thought Holliday deserved it more that year.

Jeter from 1998-2007 hit: .321/.393/.472. He had a 186 RBI run over 2 years in 1998-99. He also had a 97 RBI season in 2006.

Simply put, I think you put WAY too much stock into a 2 year window of Renteria and put blinders on the rest of his career. He was a solid, but not top of the league SS during his time in the MLB. And I will never forget when Keith Law compared his range in his later years to that of a school bus.

[rockondlouie]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/playerratings

The Cardinals are the only team to have 0 in the top 100 and highest is 138. Good teams have 5-6. Can we admit this team has no star power.

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

No way "all" were equal or better on your list.

Especially in the 2002/2003 seasons Renteria (.318 .380 .461 .840/183 RBI's) was better than most (boldened) on that list (sans the steroid freak who I discount) for those two seasons.

Winn will never have a season like those two.

Miguel Tejada had 6 100+ RBI seasons.

Guillen from 2004-2008 hit: .308/.377/.493 with 85+ RBI in 3 of those seasons.

Young from 2004-2011 hit: .312/.360/.463 with an average of 16 HR (more than Renteria’s career high), 39 2B, and 92 RBI.

Rafael Furcal’s peak wasn’t as good as Renteria’s, but his career was at least equal. Career 96 OPS+, 4 full seasons with a 100+ OPS+. Career 39 bWAR, Renteria was at 32.

Rollins from 2004-2008 hit .286/.342/.468. He had 38 2B 20 3B 30 HR season in 2007 when he won MVP. He had a career 94 OPS+, had 6 seasons with a 100+ OPS+. And career 47.9 bWAR. Again, he was at least as good as Renteria, if not better since he did win MVP one year, albeit I thought Holliday deserved it more that year.

Jeter from 1998-2007 hit: .321/.393/.472. He had a 186 RBI run over 2 years in 1998-99. He also had a 97 RBI season in 2006.

Simply put, I think you put WAY too much stock into a 2 year window of Renteria and put blinders on the rest of his career. He was a solid, but not top of the league SS during his time in the MLB. And I will never forget when Keith Law compared his range in his later years to that of a school bus.

We both are guilty of cherry picking

Renteria may "not (have been) top of the league SS during his time in the MLB", neither will Winn.

[Cardly]

The DeWitts seem hellbent on taking this payroll to be under $100 million or to be quite similar to the Rays model - who have a limited fan base, zero stars and zero big salaries.

You cannot draft fast enough to fill out a major league roster with that. Also ran teams are a dime a dozen. Shrinking fan base and zero momentum equal a dud experience.

Please sell the team, Billy, Billy and ownership! We will take our chances with a different model.

[Ozziesfan41]

WC at 71 and Donovan at 85. Had to hit Next to see 50-100.

But no love for Winn on this list? I'd keep Winn over Contreras and Donovan. Even Scott rated higher than Winn on this list. So it's suspect unless it's only based on fantasy / rotisserie stats.

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

No way "all" were equal or better on your list.

Especially in the 2002/2003 seasons Renteria (.318 .380 .461 .840/183 RBI's) was better than most (boldened) on that list (sans the steroid freak who I discount) for those two seasons.

Winn will never have a season like those two.

Miguel Tejada had 6 100+ RBI seasons.

Guillen from 2004-2008 hit: .308/.377/.493 with 85+ RBI in 3 of those seasons.

Young from 2004-2011 hit: .312/.360/.463 with an average of 16 HR (more than Renteria’s career high), 39 2B, and 92 RBI.

Rafael Furcal’s peak wasn’t as good as Renteria’s, but his career was at least equal. Career 96 OPS+, 4 full seasons with a 100+ OPS+. Career 39 bWAR, Renteria was at 32.

Rollins from 2004-2008 hit .286/.342/.468. He had 38 2B 20 3B 30 HR season in 2007 when he won MVP. He had a career 94 OPS+, had 6 seasons with a 100+ OPS+. And career 47.9 bWAR. Again, he was at least as good as Renteria, if not better since he did win MVP one year, albeit I thought Holliday deserved it more that year.

Jeter from 1998-2007 hit: .321/.393/.472. He had a 186 RBI run over 2 years in 1998-99. He also had a 97 RBI season in 2006.

Simply put, I think you put WAY too much stock into a 2 year window of Renteria and put blinders on the rest of his career. He was a solid, but not top of the league SS during his time in the MLB. And I will never forget when Keith Law compared his range in his later years to that of a school bus.

We both are guilty of cherry picking

Renteria may "not (have been) top of the league SS during his time in the MLB", neither will Winn.

Doesn’t mean you should trade a guy with elite defense and 2 errors in 109 games and install a guy with 8 errors in 50 games at short who a lot of scouts say there’s not much of a chance he can stick there

[Youboughtit]

It’s quite possible that the Cards might have to satisfy themselves in NOT having a 30+HR hitter in the middle of their lineup.
Obviously having that power is preferred.
But....you can have a good/very good lineup centered around doubles hitters and a few guys hitting 15/20 HR’s.
I seem to recall the Royals championship team of ten years ago being that type of lineup?
No big bopper but quality guys up and down the lineup taking good AB’s.
I myself think power can be overrated.
JJ looks like a potential blossoming star?
Donovan is a solid hitter.
WC still is.
On the upswing?- Herrera, Burleson, and Winn?
Vets and Who are they/declining?- Noot and Arenado.
Young and who are they?- Walker, Gorman, Scott

Work to do.
Also some fast risers coming??(Crooks, Bernal, Baez etc)

Has to be 9 of them that fit that mold. NO defensive specialist. Winn will have to hit that 20HR and steal a ton of bases. Scott will need traded and Catcher needs addressed. A legit MOTO bat allows for those types to have a job on a winning team.

[Youboughtit]

The DeWitts seem hellbent on taking this payroll to be under $100 million or to be quite similar to the Rays model - who have a limited fan base, zero stars and zero big salaries.

You cannot draft fast enough to fill out a major league roster with that. Also ran teams are a dime a dozen. Shrinking fan base and zero momentum equal a dud experience.

Please sell the team, Billy, Billy and ownership! We will take our chances with a different model.

Can’t draft/develop 26 very good players that would be needed to win with no superstars in a 6 year window. Thats why its been done 1 time in last 30 years in KC and it was a one off and did not sustain 3.5m fans

[Cusecards]

It’s quite possible that the Cards might have to satisfy themselves in NOT having a 30+HR hitter in the middle of their lineup.
Obviously having that power is preferred.
But....you can have a good/very good lineup centered around doubles hitters and a few guys hitting 15/20 HR’s.
I seem to recall the Royals championship team of ten years ago being that type of lineup?
No big bopper but quality guys up and down the lineup taking good AB’s.
I myself think power can be overrated.
JJ looks like a potential blossoming star?
Donovan is a solid hitter.
WC still is.
On the upswing?- Herrera, Burleson, and Winn?
Vets and Who are they/declining?- Noot and Arenado.
Young and who are they?- Walker, Gorman, Scott

Work to do.
Also some fast risers coming??(Crooks, Bernal, Baez etc)

Has to be 9 of them that fit that mold. NO defensive specialist. Winn will have to hit that 20HR and steal a ton of bases. Scott will need traded and Catcher needs addressed. A legit MOTO bat allows for those types to have a job on a winning team.

They will certainly need better depth to their lineup.
Fingers crossed on Herrera to hit #3 or #5?
Contreras cleanup?
Can JJ live up to the hype and hit #2 or #3?
Winn and Donovan at the top?
You mentioned Catcher and fortunately that sounds like the strongest position area in the minors?
Crooks and Bernal in 2026?
Rodriquez in a couple of years?
Most of us are frustrated with Walker & Gorman.
Can one of them cut it?
Scott can handle CF on defense but I agree his hitting needs a lot.
If he’d just hit more grounders he’d hit .260+ with all the IF hits.
Every single then becomes a potential double!

[rockondlouie]

Winn's defense is elite but overall he's nowhere near being a Top 100 MLB player.

He’s 22nd in fWAR this season. He was 42nd overall last year. Last two years combined he’s 27th. Even if you give him a 50% credit (ie add 13 to the 27, that makes 40) and double that with pitchers, that’s still within the top 100.

As I said, "defense is elite" and that accounts for the BULK of that fWAR.

But his offense is below league average (.256 .306 .384 .690/ 93 OPS+).

Nice player.

If he's the sixth best player on your team, then you've got something.

No way he's a Top 100 MLB player.

It’s amazing that a St. Louis fan who saw Ozzie play de-values the value of a player with elite defense at SS. And no, he’s not on Ozzie’s level, but he’s the closest we’ve had to Ozzie since him. And Especially when his offense, while not great, is not terrible either. And on top of that, he’s hitting .319 with RISP, which is nice for a team that is average in that area (.251 as a team). It’s actually interesting that both of our speed/defense guys in Winn and VS2 are 2 of our best hitters with RISP despite neither having above average offense overall.

VS2: .273/.376/.416
Winn: .319/.354/.418

Noot is a lowly .198/.266/.323

First, you're correct he's not even close to being Ozzie

Second, Ozzie was an ELITE base stealer (580) that increased his offensive value while Winn is a terrible base stealer.

Third, after coming to the Cardinals Ozzie slashed: .272 .350 .344 .694/93 OPS+...notice the big lead he had in OB% over Winn meaning he was on base a lot more often than Winn while still maintaining a near equal OPS/OPS+.

If we just take Ozzies first four seasons in St. Louis, even at an advanced aged compared to Winn, from age 30-34 Ozzie slashed:
.281 .362 .355 .717.

I have my doubts Winn ever comes close to that B.A. or OB%.

I like Winn.

But I'm not in the class that tries to make him out to be a "star" when he's not, he's just a nice all round player w/an elite glove/arm.

I have my doubts he ever makes an all-star team.

JMO

Ozzie was in his age 27 season when he came over to the Cardinals. I would hope at that point that he’d be better than 23 year old Masyn Winn.

Nobody is making him out to be a “star”. A top 100 player, in the 80 range is not necessarily a “star”. A guy who is top 25 this year in fWAR and top 45 in fWAR last year should be a top 100 player. Maybe in the 80-100 range because of pitchers, too. An elite defensive at a premium position/average offensive player is worthy of top 100. IMO

Give him time, we’ll see what he becomes. I still think offensively he’ll be an Edgar Renteria, which isn’t a great hitter, but a solid one. And defensively he’s elite. Maybe worst case scenario he’ll be Andrellton Simmons.

He's not a Top 100 MLB player, let alone in the 80 range (IMO).

They're 10 other MLB shortstops alone I'd rather have than Winn, maybe more.

I keep hearing this E. Renteria (as a Cardinal: .290 .347 .420 .768) comp from other posters as well, no way (IMO) but probably better than Simmons.

SS is the deepest position in baseball right now IMO. So just because you say there are 10 SS’s you’d rather have doesn’t mean that would negate him from the top 100. Again, I think 80-100 range is fair. And yes there may be 10 SS’s ahead of him still. I haven’t looked that close at it. But I would like to know who the SS’s are that you’d rather have.

And btw, it reminds me a lot of when Renteria was a Cardinal. He was good, but there were still a lot more SS’s that were better.

Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Nomar Garciaparra
Rafael Furcal
Jimmy Rollins
Michael Young
Carlos Guillen

All were equally as good or better.

No way "all" were equal or better on your list.

Especially in the 2002/2003 seasons Renteria (.318 .380 .461 .840/183 RBI's) was better than most (boldened) on that list (sans the steroid freak who I discount) for those two seasons.

Winn will never have a season like those two.

Miguel Tejada had 6 100+ RBI seasons.

Guillen from 2004-2008 hit: .308/.377/.493 with 85+ RBI in 3 of those seasons.

Young from 2004-2011 hit: .312/.360/.463 with an average of 16 HR (more than Renteria’s career high), 39 2B, and 92 RBI.

Rafael Furcal’s peak wasn’t as good as Renteria’s, but his career was at least equal. Career 96 OPS+, 4 full seasons with a 100+ OPS+. Career 39 bWAR, Renteria was at 32.

Rollins from 2004-2008 hit .286/.342/.468. He had 38 2B 20 3B 30 HR season in 2007 when he won MVP. He had a career 94 OPS+, had 6 seasons with a 100+ OPS+. And career 47.9 bWAR. Again, he was at least as good as Renteria, if not better since he did win MVP one year, albeit I thought Holliday deserved it more that year.

Jeter from 1998-2007 hit: .321/.393/.472. He had a 186 RBI run over 2 years in 1998-99. He also had a 97 RBI season in 2006.

Simply put, I think you put WAY too much stock into a 2 year window of Renteria and put blinders on the rest of his career. He was a solid, but not top of the league SS during his time in the MLB. And I will never forget when Keith Law compared his range in his later years to that of a school bus.

We both are guilty of cherry picking

Renteria may "not (have been) top of the league SS during his time in the MLB", neither will Winn.

Doesn’t mean you should trade a guy with elite defense and 2 errors in 109 games and install a guy with 8 errors in 50 games at short who a lot of scouts say there’s not much of a chance he can stick there

Certainly wouldn't give him away.

But if some team comes calling and is offering a #2 SP w/years of control, then I'm all in.