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VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:48 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 13:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:28 pm

Melville wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 14:13 pm Allow me to share some good news amidst the doom.
Super Slo is defined by caution, fear, and timidity.
Deep set fear of failure paralyzes him - as he has admitted.
"Chaim Not Afraid of Risk" Bloom will be different, as his career to date documents.
He has pieces to move in exchange for starting pitchers.
At the MLB level, he has parts with which to work.
Lars The Human Sushi-baar should be traded as I alone was first to understand and advise 4 seasons ago - and it appears STL finally grasps that.
Now that Herrera is no longer a catcher (being moved after I alone was first to understand and advise 3 seasons ago) - he has created potential redundancy in the outfield and at DH and STL may be able to make a choice between him and Walker.
Wetherholt's expected arrival for 2026 should move Donovan off second base - allowing him to return to his fulltime starter rotating super utility role, take over LF, or be a trade piece.
Though many appreciate Burleson's contribution (including me), if STL has no intention of pursuing an extension Bloom could look at moving him at peak value this winter.
And there are minor league pieces as well.
The big developmental jumps from Church and Joshua Baez this season could Bloom to make Scott available under the right circumstances.
Crooks and Bernal present an interesting dilemma as well - either would bring significant return.
Bottom line.
One from the list of Herrera or Walker.
One or two from the list of Mootbaar, Burleson, Donovan, or Scott.
One from the list of Crooks or Bernal.
Not advocating one way or the other, but Bloom can easily move 3 from this group and really not negatively impact the 2026 position player roster one bit.
A good spot to be in - for the right man.
We shall see if Bloom is.

Mel,

Good post!
I think Gorman can be added to the possible trade candidate list as well.

We have the ability to compete very soon, if ownership will allow Bloom to do so, meaning giving him some money to fill in the needed pieces.

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:45 pm Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:31 pm

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:48 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 13:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 21:35 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:31 pm

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:48 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 13:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Make no mistake: they can (and should) raise payroll. A healthy amount. If the team wants to salvage a fleeing fanbase, they'd be wise to give them something to get excited about.

I don't believe the front office's mantra that in order to modernize its minor league system, they can't be attentive to the parent club. I don't believe the front office when it cries about "uncertainty" approaching a work stoppage that is supposedly unavoidable. I don't believe their excuses, but based on their words, I believe the only way this team is getting better in the next two years is via the players within the organization right now.

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 21:56 pm

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 21:35 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:31 pm

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:48 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 13:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Make no mistake: they can (and should) raise payroll. A healthy amount. If the team wants to salvage a fleeing fanbase, they'd be wise to give them something to get excited about.

I don't believe the front office's mantra that in order to modernize its minor league system, they can't be attentive to the parent club. I don't believe the front office when it cries about "uncertainty" approaching a work stoppage that is supposedly unavoidable. I don't believe their excuses, but based on their words, I believe the only way this team is getting better in the next two years is via the players within the organization right now.

If right, that will not happen. We don't have enough internal talent to be contenders. Simply as that. Not even close.

Melville wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:48 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:45 pm Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Not I.
All of last season I repeatedly stated it was not sustainable.

82birds wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 11:25 am most likely true but at least it will be Bloom searching, not MO

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 23:11 pm

Melville wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:48 pm

Hoosier59 wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:45 pm Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Not I.
All of last season I repeatedly stated it was not sustainable.

You learned your lesson on ground ball pitchers after proclaiming Hudson a great pitcher huh?

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 20:31 pm

VegasVinny wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:48 pm

Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 13:58 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Melville wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 15:00 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 14:42 pm

Melville wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 14:13 pm Allow me to share some good news amidst the doom.
Super Slo is defined by caution, fear, and timidity.
Deep set fear of failure paralyzes him - as he has admitted.
"Chaim Not Afraid of Risk" Bloom will be different, as his career to date documents.
He has pieces to move in exchange for starting pitchers.
At the MLB level, he has parts with which to work.
Lars The Human Sushi-baar should be traded as I alone was first to understand and advise 4 seasons ago - and it appears STL finally grasps that.
Now that Herrera is no longer a catcher (being moved after I alone was first to understand and advise 3 seasons ago) - he has created potential redundancy in the outfield and at DH and STL may be able to make a choice between him and Walker.
Wetherholt's expected arrival for 2026 should move Donovan off second base - allowing him to return to his fulltime starter rotating super utility role, take over LF, or be a trade piece.
Though many appreciate Burleson's contribution (including me), if STL has no intention of pursuing an extension Bloom could look at moving him at peak value this winter.
And there are minor league pieces as well.
The big developmental jumps from Church and Joshua Baez this season could Bloom to make Scott available under the right circumstances.
Crooks and Bernal present an interesting dilemma as well - either would bring significant return.
Bottom line.
One from the list of Herrera or Walker.
One or two from the list of Mootbaar, Burleson, Donovan, or Scott.
One from the list of Crooks or Bernal.
Not advocating one way or the other, but Bloom can easily move 3 from this group and really not negatively impact the 2026 position player roster one bit.
A good spot to be in - for the right man.
We shall see if Bloom is.

You keep forgetting mel that I started a thread the same year saying Hererra needed to be converted to the outfield.

Very fair observation.
Credit where credit is due.
How would you prefer that I amend that point morning forward?
There are options.
"I and rockondlouie were first and best to understand and advise 3 seasons ago that Herrera should be moved to another position."
Or, "Long before anyone else, I and rockondlouie correctly analyzed several years ago that the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION was to move Herrera to another position".
Never about me, of course.
Or about you.
Simply want to ensure the accuracy of the record.
Only and always about the game.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 19:26 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑10 Aug 2025 12:18 pm (And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Thanks for clarifying. It changes my entire outlook on the lockout factor. I had already bought into common narrative on how it will prevent spending.