Free Agent starters - little chance the Cards get anyone decent

[Cardinals4Life]

I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

[Hoosier59]

Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

[Melville]

Allow me to share some good news amidst the doom.
Super Slo is defined by caution, fear, and timidity.
Deep set fear of failure paralyzes him - as he has admitted.
"Chaim Not Afraid of Risk" Bloom will be different, as his career to date documents.
He has pieces to move in exchange for starting pitchers.
At the MLB level, he has parts with which to work.
Lars The Human Sushi-baar should be traded as I alone was first to understand and advise 4 seasons ago - and it appears STL finally grasps that.
Now that Herrera is no longer a catcher (being moved after I alone was first to understand and advise 3 seasons ago) - he has created potential redundancy in the outfield and at DH and STL may be able to make a choice between him and Walker.
Wetherholt's expected arrival for 2026 should move Donovan off second base - allowing him to return to his fulltime starter rotating super utility role, take over LF, or be a trade piece.
Though many appreciate Burleson's contribution (including me), if STL has no intention of pursuing an extension Bloom could look at moving him at peak value this winter.
And there are minor league pieces as well.
The big developmental jumps from Church and Joshua Baez this season could Bloom to make Scott available under the right circumstances.
Crooks and Bernal present an interesting dilemma as well - either would bring significant return.
Bottom line.
One from the list of Herrera or Walker.
One or two from the list of Mootbaar, Burleson, Donovan, or Scott.
One from the list of Crooks or Bernal.
Not advocating one way or the other, but Bloom can easily move 3 from this group and really not negatively impact the 2026 position player roster one bit.
A good spot to be in - for the right man.
We shall see if Bloom is.

Mel,

Good post!
I think Gorman can be added to the possible trade candidate list as well.

We have the ability to compete very soon, if ownership will allow Bloom to do so, meaning giving him some money to fill in the needed pieces.

Bloom could indeed consider trading Gorman.
But for a team lacking in power and very little of that asset in the upper levels of the system, it would be foolish to trade its most powerful LH bat.

[Melville]

Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Not I.
All of last season I repeatedly stated it was not sustainable.

[VegasVinny]

I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Make no mistake: they can (and should) raise payroll. A healthy amount. If the team wants to salvage a fleeing fanbase, they'd be wise to give them something to get excited about.

I don't believe the front office's mantra that in order to modernize its minor league system, they can't be attentive to the parent club. I don't believe the front office when it cries about "uncertainty" approaching a work stoppage that is supposedly unavoidable. I don't believe their excuses, but based on their words, I believe the only way this team is getting better in the next two years is via the players within the organization right now.

[Cardinals4Life]

I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Make no mistake: they can (and should) raise payroll. A healthy amount. If the team wants to salvage a fleeing fanbase, they'd be wise to give them something to get excited about.

I don't believe the front office's mantra that in order to modernize its minor league system, they can't be attentive to the parent club. I don't believe the front office when it cries about "uncertainty" approaching a work stoppage that is supposedly unavoidable. I don't believe their excuses, but based on their words, I believe the only way this team is getting better in the next two years is via the players within the organization right now.

If right, that will not happen. We don't have enough internal talent to be contenders. Simply as that. Not even close.

[VegasVinny]

I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Make no mistake: they can (and should) raise payroll. A healthy amount. If the team wants to salvage a fleeing fanbase, they'd be wise to give them something to get excited about.

I don't believe the front office's mantra that in order to modernize its minor league system, they can't be attentive to the parent club. I don't believe the front office when it cries about "uncertainty" approaching a work stoppage that is supposedly unavoidable. I don't believe their excuses, but based on their words, I believe the only way this team is getting better in the next two years is via the players within the organization right now.

If right, that will not happen. We don't have enough internal talent to be contenders. Simply as that. Not even close.

Agreed. Hence, my original point: it'll be the 2027-2028 offseason before the team can will debate about restoring payroll to the level fans here are accustomed to.

[ramfandan]

My concern with Pallante is that he gets this high praise for having one of the best 'ground ball' rates in the MLB.
The problem is this .. and actually it is pervasive through our pitching staff not just Andre.
Though we are the 3rd most ground balls n MLB , Cardinals are also 2nd least strikeouts to opponents.

I see Pallante give up a grounder single ) , the guy steals 2nd , then a grounder to right side moves him over to 3rd, then a fly ball sac fly scores that runner . That's the problem with ground ball pitchers who can't get many strikeouts , their multiple grounders can lead to base runners moving around the bases and scoring on outs from 3rd base.

[Ozziesfan41]

With the lockout coming I would be shocked if cards sign anyone to multi year deals. I think if they sign any starters it will be a Gibson or Lynn style one year contract. Although they may sign one of those and he may trade some of the infielders for a young cost controlled starter

[Ozziesfan41]

Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Not I.
All of last season I repeatedly stated it was not sustainable.

You learned your lesson on ground ball pitchers after proclaiming Hudson a great pitcher huh?

[thetank2]

most likely true but at least it will be Bloom searching, not MO

That should concern us.

[stlbirdlover]

They really need a good starting pitcher! I wouldn't want Flaherty!

[Melville]

Last season, many on here were praising Andre Pallante as at least being a strong middle of the rotation starter. Other than a few games, he has struggled this year. However, and here’s my point, which pitcher is the real Pallante? So many on here are ready to just DFA him! Isn’t that a little premature for a low cost potential middle of the rotation guy? If you look back on the careers of MLB players, almost everyone of them had down seasons. They weren’t the norm, but it happened. What say we don’t rush into rash decisions with Andre and see where the norm falls with him?

Not I.
All of last season I repeatedly stated it was not sustainable.

You learned your lesson on ground ball pitchers after proclaiming Hudson a great pitcher huh?

I freely admit that I did not predict the arm injury that ruined Hudson's career.
Up to that point, he was the team's best pitcher as I said he would be.
Pallante is another matter.
Not hard to see that a 2-pitch starter who struggles against RH hitters was not going to succeed.
Weird that so many could not see that a year ago.
I did.

[3dender]

I'd like to see them go after B. Woodruff with a S. Gray like $70M/3 yr deal (Knowing Gray's $35M is off the books after next year).

Mikolas/Matz/Helsley/Fedde = $45+M off the books, plenty of payroll space to easily cover Woodruffs salary w/money left over.

2026 Rotation:

Woodruff
Gray
Libby
McGreevy
????? (trade for a current #4/5 young starter w/upside)

"Q"/Doyle (potentially sometime in 2026)


(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Yeah, seems like most here on CT have already accepted that next year "we can't sign anybody" because of a possible work stoppage.
Even on this thread alone, people are talking about waiting till 2028. Wow!

Simply trying to ground my expectations in reality. The front office recently doubled down on suppressing payroll, and thus, won't be spending dollars on difference makers this offseason. So, with what (realistic) path to contention does that leave the 2026 team?

- Bloom trades excess roster pieces and pulls rabbits out of a couple hats
- Quinn Mathews and JJ Wetherholt break camp with the parent club, experience injury-free rookie seasons with no Walker/Gorman-type, um, learning curves
- Speaking of Walker, he produces a season we've all been awaiting
- Because payroll will be staying flat, we should realistically expect no more than one Phil Maton-type reliever, as that was all the team signed last year when they spouted off the same expectation-lowering message

A lot - not everything - has to go right and next to nothing can go wrong with any of the above.

Vinny,

Appreciate the conversation. Explain to me why we won't be adding any $ this offseason. I mean we are getting down to bare bones. I don't get it.

Lol bc the owner is cheap af and doesn't want to spend... it's really not that complicated, you just need to wake up to reality. They're even running out of reasonable sounding excuses at this point, they are virtually admitting it openly.

[rockondlouie]

Allow me to share some good news amidst the doom.
Super Slo is defined by caution, fear, and timidity.
Deep set fear of failure paralyzes him - as he has admitted.
"Chaim Not Afraid of Risk" Bloom will be different, as his career to date documents.
He has pieces to move in exchange for starting pitchers.
At the MLB level, he has parts with which to work.
Lars The Human Sushi-baar should be traded as I alone was first to understand and advise 4 seasons ago - and it appears STL finally grasps that.
Now that Herrera is no longer a catcher (being moved after I alone was first to understand and advise 3 seasons ago) - he has created potential redundancy in the outfield and at DH and STL may be able to make a choice between him and Walker.
Wetherholt's expected arrival for 2026 should move Donovan off second base - allowing him to return to his fulltime starter rotating super utility role, take over LF, or be a trade piece.
Though many appreciate Burleson's contribution (including me), if STL has no intention of pursuing an extension Bloom could look at moving him at peak value this winter.
And there are minor league pieces as well.
The big developmental jumps from Church and Joshua Baez this season could Bloom to make Scott available under the right circumstances.
Crooks and Bernal present an interesting dilemma as well - either would bring significant return.
Bottom line.
One from the list of Herrera or Walker.
One or two from the list of Mootbaar, Burleson, Donovan, or Scott.
One from the list of Crooks or Bernal.
Not advocating one way or the other, but Bloom can easily move 3 from this group and really not negatively impact the 2026 position player roster one bit.
A good spot to be in - for the right man.
We shall see if Bloom is.

You keep forgetting mel that I started a thread the same year saying Hererra needed to be converted to the outfield.

Very fair observation.
Credit where credit is due.
How would you prefer that I amend that point morning forward?
There are options.
"I and rockondlouie were first and best to understand and advise 3 seasons ago that Herrera should be moved to another position."
Or, "Long before anyone else, I and rockondlouie correctly analyzed several years ago that the CORRECT BASEBALL DECISION was to move Herrera to another position".
Never about me, of course.
Or about you.
Simply want to ensure the accuracy of the record.
Only and always about the game.

[rockondlouie]

(And enough of the lockout talk! Players AREN'T PAID during a lockout so teams will still be signing free agents and BDWjr should NOT get away w/spreading horse manure)

Thanks for clarifying. It changes my entire outlook on the lockout factor. I had already bought into common narrative on how it will prevent spending.

Welcome

I'm so surprised to hear local and national people act like signing a Free Agent this offseason is verboten acting like BDWJr would be paying that player during the lockout.

Sure agents will ask (doesn't mean they get it) for a higher 2026 salary and a lower 2027 salary but so what?

The length and total amount of the contract won't change except for the player being out the money during the lockout and owner not paying that money during the lockout.