imadangman wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 20:51 pm
I have a hard time believing Arenado can last on this roster through 2027. It's very clear he's in decline. He has an OPS+ of 88 at 3rd base, and seems to be losing mobility. Did anyone see him running home last night from 2nd base. You can't have Gorman, Wetherholt, Arenado, Donovan, all on this roster.
The Cardinals surely are going to have an uphill battle trading him. Does anyone know how much money teams are expecting the Cardinals to cover? Is it possible teams are expecting us to cover the whole thing? He looks like a salary dump or a player you'd have to attach to a prospect to move.
What are the odds the Cardinals eventually have to just DFA him, anytime between now and when the contract is up?
BDW probably wouldn't want to swallow the sunken cost yet. If they have to DFA him it probably wouldn't happen until mid-2026 I bet, after more possible failed attempts to trade him.
Similar OPS+ as his last season in CO
I fully accept that he's aged. I also think he's less of
a player with pressure. Pressure like attempting to be a better player in order to be attractive enough for a trade.
That's a good point. Compared to the last 2 seasons he seems more accepting of where he is in his career. Or maybe I just made that up.
if N/A had accepted the truth about his decline, he would have changed his approach at the plate.
He hasn't.
He is still trying to pull and elevate - but he's just too slow now.
Which is why there are so many weak popups in the middle of the field.
This might be an excellent point.
I tend to see it this way but I have not compared video.
I just remember it as the same.
If it is. It was a flawed approach that his great talent was able to overcome in his peak years.
He probably is who he is at this stage. You guys want him to take walks and hit for contact up the middle? How is he going to do that.
His same approach would probably still work in Houston. It's why Isaac Paredes is having a big year there.
45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 21:08 pm
They may not have a choice….unless they are content with a dead spot on the roster….
Package him with Mootbaar.
Easiest way to get him out of town - and the team gets better at 2 roster spots.
That would reduce the amount of N/A dollars STL would have to eat.
I'll give you credit because that's a dream scenario. But what if you've got a team that will pay a big prospect individually for Nootbaar.
Mootbaar isn't very good.
But he does offer 2 benefits that are hard to acquire at the deadline.
He has 2 more years of control.
And with a 2.9M salary this year, due to being unable to stay on the field he won't cost much next year either.
A lot of teams would be willing to bet on that.
Even if it means taking on Arenado with STL eating enough to make it palatable.
Mootbaar & N/A is the right place to start in building a package.
imadangman wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 20:51 pm
I have a hard time believing Arenado can last on this roster through 2027. It's very clear he's in decline. He has an OPS+ of 88 at 3rd base, and seems to be losing mobility. Did anyone see him running home last night from 2nd base. You can't have Gorman, Wetherholt, Arenado, Donovan, all on this roster.
The Cardinals surely are going to have an uphill battle trading him. Does anyone know how much money teams are expecting the Cardinals to cover? Is it possible teams are expecting us to cover the whole thing? He looks like a salary dump or a player you'd have to attach to a prospect to move.
What are the odds the Cardinals eventually have to just DFA him, anytime between now and when the contract is up?
BDW probably wouldn't want to swallow the sunken cost yet. If they have to DFA him it probably wouldn't happen until mid-2026 I bet, after more possible failed attempts to trade him.
Similar OPS+ as his last season in CO
I fully accept that he's aged. I also think he's less of
a player with pressure. Pressure like attempting to be a better player in order to be attractive enough for a trade.
That's a good point. Compared to the last 2 seasons he seems more accepting of where he is in his career. Or maybe I just made that up.
if N/A had accepted the truth about his decline, he would have changed his approach at the plate.
He hasn't.
He is still trying to pull and elevate - but he's just too slow now.
Which is why there are so many weak popups in the middle of the field.
This might be an excellent point.
I tend to see it this way but I have not compared video.
I just remember it as the same.
If it is. It was a flawed approach that his great talent was able to overcome in his peak years.
Nearly 100% of his power was to left field - and he had a big whirlybird style swing to get elevation.
That was fine when he was young enough and fact enough to get around quickly on a pitch.
Now, he's late and slow.
Popups to the middle of the field are the result.
Yes always to left.
My memory has his left arm being bowed out, balance being optional and preferences of a low zone and most importantly able to overcome that.
45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 21:08 pm
They may not have a choice….unless they are content with a dead spot on the roster….
Package him with Mootbaar.
Easiest way to get him out of town - and the team gets better at 2 roster spots.
That would reduce the amount of N/A dollars STL would have to eat.
Is there a contender that would want 2 under perfoming bats? I think that the only package that a contender would want is with Helsley.
Helsey is the best "rental" chip they have.
And he will be one of the most coveted rentals if Mo moves him.
Tying him to N/A would defeat the purpose.
All true but not my issue with your suggestion.
Which contender that NA would go to would want Nootbaar?
imadangman wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 20:51 pm
I have a hard time believing Arenado can last on this roster through 2027. It's very clear he's in decline. He has an OPS+ of 88 at 3rd base, and seems to be losing mobility. Did anyone see him running home last night from 2nd base. You can't have Gorman, Wetherholt, Arenado, Donovan, all on this roster.
The Cardinals surely are going to have an uphill battle trading him. Does anyone know how much money teams are expecting the Cardinals to cover? Is it possible teams are expecting us to cover the whole thing? He looks like a salary dump or a player you'd have to attach to a prospect to move.
What are the odds the Cardinals eventually have to just DFA him, anytime between now and when the contract is up?
BDW probably wouldn't want to swallow the sunken cost yet. If they have to DFA him it probably wouldn't happen until mid-2026 I bet, after more possible failed attempts to trade him.
Similar OPS+ as his last season in CO
I fully accept that he's aged. I also think he's less of
a player with pressure. Pressure like attempting to be a better player in order to be attractive enough for a trade.
That's a good point. Compared to the last 2 seasons he seems more accepting of where he is in his career. Or maybe I just made that up.
if N/A had accepted the truth about his decline, he would have changed his approach at the plate.
He hasn't.
He is still trying to pull and elevate - but he's just too slow now.
Which is why there are so many weak popups in the middle of the field.
This might be an excellent point.
I tend to see it this way but I have not compared video.
I just remember it as the same.
If it is. It was a flawed approach that his great talent was able to overcome in his peak years.
Nearly 100% of his power was to left field - and he had a big whirlybird style swing to get elevation.
That was fine when he was young enough and fast enough to get around quickly on a pitch.
Now, he's late and slow.
Popups to the middle of the field are the result.
Yes always to left.
My memory has his left arm being bowed out, balance being optional and preferences of a low zone and most importantly able to overcome that.
Correct.
He was often out of balance at the end of his swing as he provided torque to yank the ball.
He just can't do it very often at this point.
45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 21:08 pm
They may not have a choice….unless they are content with a dead spot on the roster….
Package him with Mootbaar.
Easiest way to get him out of town - and the team gets better at 2 roster spots.
That would reduce the amount of N/A dollars STL would have to eat.
Is there a contender that would want 2 under perfoming bats? I think that the only package that a contender would want is with Helsley.
Helsey is the best "rental" chip they have.
And he will be one of the most coveted rentals if Mo moves him.
Tying him to N/A would defeat the purpose.
All true but not my issue with your suggestion.
Which contender that NA would go to would want Nootbaar?
45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 21:08 pm
They may not have a choice….unless they are content with a dead spot on the roster….
Package him with Mootbaar.
Easiest way to get him out of town - and the team gets better at 2 roster spots.
That would reduce the amount of N/A dollars STL would have to eat.
Is there a contender that would want 2 under perfoming bats? I think that the only package that a contender would want is with Helsley.
Helsey is the best "rental" chip they have.
And he will be one of the most coveted rentals if Mo moves him.
Tying him to N/A would defeat the purpose.
All true but not my issue with your suggestion.
Which contender that NA would go to would want Nootbaar?
Several are looking for an outfield bat.
Are there even several that NA goes to.
I don’t think I need my full hand for that but
an answer will come soon enough.
I just see pitching used if grease is needed....
Jo Jo? Matz?
Since Nado is a likely HOF and a future Cardinal HOF, they are not going to DFA him during this contract. Unless he wants to be traded, I don't think Bloom will be able to get rid of him either. The more likely scenario is that he has reduced playing time during both 2026 and 2027. Something like 120-125 games in 2026 and maybe 80-100 in 2027. They can allow him to retire gracefully that way.
I say likely HOF player as his numbers are likely to end up near those of Ron Santo who took forever to get in the HOF. Arenado will end up short of 400 HRs, a bit over 2000 hits and a career WAR around 60. Santo had a career WAR of 70, hit 342 HRs. If Arenado retires after the 2027 season, he would have played exactly the same number of seasons Santo did in MLB. Arenado was a better defender. Santo's OBP was higher and the OPS is nearly identical.
Platoon Gorman and Nado. Gorman plays 3 games per week against RHP. Maybe 1 at DH as well. Yes you give up some D no question about that but if this is a reset/rebuild it's time for Gorman to sink or swim and he can't do either from the bench. Also gives Nado an incentive to waive the NTC if he's no longer a full time player.
reson8 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 07:06 am
Platoon Gorman and Nado. Gorman plays 3 games per week against RHP. Maybe 1 at DH as well. Yes you give up some D no question about that but if this is a reset/rebuild it's time for Gorman to sink or swim and he can't do either from the bench. Also gives Nado an incentive to waive the NTC if he's no longer a full time player.
Gorman has an .824 OPS since May 23. So he deserves to get his ABs. When he plays he can impact a game with his power.
45s wrote: ↑27 Jul 2025 21:08 pm
They may not have a choice….unless they are content with a dead spot on the roster….
Package him with Mootbaar.
Easiest way to get him out of town - and the team gets better at 2 roster spots.
That would reduce the amount of N/A dollars STL would have to eat.
Is there a contender that would want 2 under perfoming bats? I think that the only package that a contender would want is with Helsley.
Helsey is the best "rental" chip they have.
And he will be one of the most coveted rentals if Mo moves him.
Tying him to N/A would defeat the purpose.
All true but not my issue with your suggestion.
Which contender that NA would go to would want Nootbaar?
Several are looking for an outfield bat.
Are there even several that NA goes to.
I don’t think I need my full hand for that but
an answer will come soon enough.
I just see pitching used if grease is needed....
Jo Jo? Matz?
If STL does what is needed, N/A will go where he is told.
Simply instruct N/A that if he chooses to remain in STL, he will immediately be demoted to 3rd string behind Gorman and Saggese - and will compete with Fermin for a couple of PA's a week as the last man on the bench.
STL holds all the cards and all the leverage - and needs nothing more than a willingness to use it.
And yes, I agree that Matz or Maton could join N/A in a package in place of Mootbaar, depending on the preference of the trade partner.
ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 00:01 am
Since Nado is a likely HOF and a future Cardinal HOF, they are not going to DFA him during this contract. Unless he wants to be traded, I don't think Bloom will be able to get rid of him either. The more likely scenario is that he has reduced playing time during both 2026 and 2027. Something like 120-125 games in 2026 and maybe 80-100 in 2027. They can allow him to retire gracefully that way.
I say likely HOF player as his numbers are likely to end up near those of Ron Santo who took forever to get in the HOF. Arenado will end up short of 400 HRs, a bit over 2000 hits and a career WAR around 60. Santo had a career WAR of 70, hit 342 HRs. If Arenado retires after the 2027 season, he would have played exactly the same number of seasons Santo did in MLB. Arenado was a better defender. Santo's OBP was higher and the OPS is nearly identical.
Santo does not belong in the HOF.
He was selected for reasons other than what he contributed on the field.
As for N/A, "allowing him to retire gracefully" should be of zero consideration to STL or any other team.
Only a fool would allocate playing time now, next year, the year after, or any other year on that basis.
STL attempted that idiocy with Wainwright - which led to a TOXIC disaster which is still negatively impacting the team.
reson8 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2025 07:06 am
Platoon Gorman and Nado. Gorman plays 3 games per week against RHP. Maybe 1 at DH as well. Yes you give up some D no question about that but if this is a reset/rebuild it's time for Gorman to sink or swim and he can't do either from the bench. Also gives Nado an incentive to waive the NTC if he's no longer a full time player.
Gorman has an .824 OPS since May 23. So he deserves to get his ABs. When he plays he can impact a game with his power.
Yes, of course.
Absolutely spot on.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.
