STLtoday.com

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 15:27 pm**

TraveledLessRoad wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 15:19 pm Sounds like Philly is going to go for a big-time closer. Jump the market and sell Helsley. The Tigers are also apparently in dire need of back-end bullpen help. Maybe Maton?

"Also, for what it's worth, multiple Phillies beat writers saying Dombrowski is going to be more aggressive in his search for bullpen arms and target the Emmanuel Clase types of the world certainly suggests the Phils will be willing to splash some prospects around."

Also, I wonder if Mo/Chaim should pick up the phone and give Baltimore a call on one of Coby Mayo or Heston Kjerstad. Those dudes are both being Jordan Walker'd to death over there and could use a change of scenery. I'd take a flyer on either one of those guys. Mayo, in particular.

Agree with you on Philly. They are not going to be prospect-hugging at the deadline. We match up pretty well with multiple needs that they have. We are sending them enough years of control in this package for them to "sell" it to their ownership or fanbase. While it's tough to make large trades, it actually might be easier than aligning and completing deals with 3 different teams.

Agree with you also on the Orioles. Mayo has been a favorite target of mine. They need controllable starting pitching. Pallante has a similar (a little less) trade value to Mayo at the current time.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 19:14 pm**

TraveledLessRoad wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 15:19 pm Sounds like Philly is going to go for a big-time closer. Jump the market and sell Helsley. The Tigers are also apparently in dire need of back-end bullpen help. Maybe Maton?

"Also, for what it's worth, multiple Phillies beat writers saying Dombrowski is going to be more aggressive in his search for bullpen arms and target the Emmanuel Clase types of the world certainly suggests the Phils will be willing to splash some prospects around."

Also, I wonder if Mo/Chaim should pick up the phone and give Baltimore a call on one of Coby Mayo or Heston Kjerstad. Those dudes are both being Jordan Walker'd to death over there and could use a change of scenery. I'd take a flyer on either one of those guys. Mayo, in particular.

They are looking for controllable bullpen arms so that is why Clase is the target. If that fails they may look at Helsley but it won’t be Miller or Crawford in return. Like I said add Crooks and maybe they surrender Abel. That would still be a win for the Cards

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 20:10 pm**

To clarify Arenado's 2026 and 2027 salaries.

2026: $19M ($27M - $5M paid by COL - $3M because Arenado agreed to defer $6M for over 10 years making it worth only $3M)
2027: $15M

He will cost his team only $34M over the next two seasons.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 20:36 pm**

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 14:24 pm
RunSup wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 13:39 pm
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 09:58 am
Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 09:56 am
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)
I love the 1st 2 trades, especially #1.
I'd do either of those without blinking!
Do them all. Look at the haul.
Yes. But the Cardinals are still pretending to contend. So none of this will happen, especially if Mo still is in the big chair for the next month.

My common sense says to agree, but I was pleasantly surprised at the end of spring training when Scott made the team instead of Siani and Liberatore made the rotation instead of Matz. i was pleasantly surprised by the draft. They definitely changed their approach- and it was better. Like you, I'm not sold on a good deadline as long as Mo is involved, but things are changing so I am going to try to leave room for the idea that maybe, just maybe, I will be pleasantly surprised by the deadline too.

I don't recall where I read or heard this, but I understood Chaim Bloom insisted that Liberatore be put in the rotation this year. Given that they were otherwise going to lose 3 starting pitchers at the end of the year, it was clearly the correct move. Scott forced their hand and MO admitted to that in an interview on 101.1 at the start of the season.

I like your trade #1. You don't see many trades with that many players. That would be a real all in move by the Phillies. If they highly value Nootbar and Crooks, it is not out of the realm of possibilities. They don't have a near term catching prospect. There is not much on the free agent market next year. Realmuto could sign a 1 year deal with them. Maybe.

Riley O'Brien seems to be putting it together and can probably slide into the closer role. If Granillo is healthy, he can come back up. That makes trading Helsley not that big of a deal at this point. Nootbar is not doing anything worthwhile at this point. Certainly Donovan and Burleson can cover the OF. If they did do trade #1, the only other trade I would try to make would be to move Arenado if the opportunity was there. Let Gorman, Saggese, etc. get some runway and even Wetherholdt the rest of the way out.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 20:55 pm**

No.
No.
No.
Today.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 21:13 pm**

Wow. How devastating is that? Melville doesn't like my proposals.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 21:19 pm**

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

My favorite of the above list is #2 A Strikeout Machine. My least favorite is #3 The MOTB.

I don't see the Cards trading Nootbar or Pallante or Arenado. They need Pallante to eat innings for them for the next few years.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 21:24 pm**

cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:19 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)
My favorite of the above list is #2 A Strikeout Machine. My least favorite is #3 The MOTB.

I don't see the Cards trading Nootbar or Pallante or Arenado. They need Pallante to eat innings for them for the next few years.

I would be interested to hear what it is that you don't like about #3. It is the one I would be most excited about.

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 21:36 pm**

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:24 pm
cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:19 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)
My favorite of the above list is #2 A Strikeout Machine. My least favorite is #3 The MOTB.

I don't see the Cards trading Nootbar or Pallante or Arenado. They need Pallante to eat innings for them for the next few years.
I would be interested to hear what it is that you don't like about #3. It is the one I would be most excited about.

It is just a huge gamble that Josue Briceno will actually be a MOTO bat. He's barely reached AA ball.

With Fedde, Mikolas, Matz, Helsley, and Maton leaving this offseason from a mediocre pitching staff, the Cards are desperate for more average or better pitching.

If Gray has a great year in 2026, he will opt out and also be gone. If he's awful, the Cards will decline his option.
Romero is a free agent after 2026, too.

The Cards need to graduate a lot of good pitchers in a hurry to fill those gaps.

Finally, the Cards are overloaded with DH/1B guys. Contreras, Herrera, Burleson, Gorman, Walker, ...

Posted: **15 Jul 2025 21:41 pm**

cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:36 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:24 pm
cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:19 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)
My favorite of the above list is #2 A Strikeout Machine. My least favorite is #3 The MOTB.

I don't see the Cards trading Nootbar or Pallante or Arenado. They need Pallante to eat innings for them for the next few years.
I would be interested to hear what it is that you don't like about #3. It is the one I would be most excited about.
It is just a huge gamble that Josue Briceno will actually be a MOTO bat. He's barely reached AA ball.

With Fedde, Mikolas, Matz, Helsley, and Maton leaving this offseason from a mediocre pitching staff, the Cards are desperate for more average or better pitching.

If Gray has a great year in 2026, he will opt out and also be gone. If he's awful, the Cards will decline his option.
Romero is a free agent after 2026, too.

The Cards need to graduate a lot of good pitchers in a hurry to fill those gaps.

Finally, the Cards are overloaded with DH/1B guys. Contreras, Herrera, Burleson, Gorman, Walker, ...

Thanks for the reply.

Posted: **16 Jul 2025 08:55 am**

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:41 pm
cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:36 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:24 pm
cardstatman wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 21:19 pm
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:26 am The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)
My favorite of the above list is #2 A Strikeout Machine. My least favorite is #3 The MOTB.

I don't see the Cards trading Nootbar or Pallante or Arenado. They need Pallante to eat innings for them for the next few years.
I would be interested to hear what it is that you don't like about #3. It is the one I would be most excited about.
It is just a huge gamble that Josue Briceno will actually be a MOTO bat. He's barely reached AA ball.

With Fedde, Mikolas, Matz, Helsley, and Maton leaving this offseason from a mediocre pitching staff, the Cards are desperate for more average or better pitching.

If Gray has a great year in 2026, he will opt out and also be gone. If he's awful, the Cards will decline his option.
Romero is a free agent after 2026, too.

The Cards need to graduate a lot of good pitchers in a hurry to fill those gaps.

Finally, the Cards are overloaded with DH/1B guys. Contreras, Herrera, Burleson, Gorman, Walker, ...
Thanks for the reply.

What I like about Briceno:
He hits for power- and not just home runs
Has good bat to ball skills. Low strike out rates. High walk rates.
He is not a "Burly" guy. He is athletic. 6'4" 200 lbs
He is young for his level and didn't stop hitting, or slugging when promoted.

That said, he is learning a position, and not one of the skill positions at that. If I can get 30-35 HR with a .850 OPS or better and that kind of hit tool, I guess I don't care where he plays. We don't have a bat like that (not even Herrera) and this seems like the least expensive way to get one.

Posted: **16 Jul 2025 09:19 am**

I don't know if any of those trades are balanced or who the prospects are and can't be bothered to look. But I like the IDEA of pumping high ceiling talent into the farm if that is what they are.

It would be a wonderful thing to see a lot of that kind of revamp happening in the next 2 weeks.

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