Four Proposals

[scoutyjones2]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

If I read everything correctly you had an outfielder in one of the trades. I’m hoping they target some hard hitting outfield prospects. Of course pitching is a need. Hopefully they addressed some of this in the draft.

Yeah, the outfielder mentioned is Justin Crawford (Carl Crawford's son). He is a left-handed hitter carrying a .33 BA and an.839 OPS in AAA right now. He is fast.

Appreciate the work

Great, another LH hitter. Wish you'd post if these trade pieces are RH or LH hitters.

Cards don't need more LH hitters

Hard to find power/good RH OFers...odd

I did also propose trading away 3 left handed hitters.

To bring in what handed hitting?

[Talkin' Baseball]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

This isn't 2023 where we lost 91 games and have a 3 year reset, so AA kind of keeps us behind the 8 ball. Procrastination still reigns in too many people's minds, but we are at the stage where we need to acquire MLB (and maybe some MLB ready, in a Nick Kurtz type of ready way) talent with control. Yes, there's some risk but taking a Alcantra or Gallen while they are down (and without a 9 figure contract attached) might not be a bad idea. Or go for the top OF power prospect in Spencer Jones - MLB ready. Nobody is going to be the next Judge, but he could rival Kurtz.

I'm a third little pig- I like to build a house of bricks even if it takes a little longer. These AA guys will be major league ready when the work stoppage ends. We can be loaded with a young, high end talent team with a payroll low enough to make literally any move even these tightwads could afford to do. You could sign anyone (if you had the courage), or extend anyone on your roster with no worries.

There are broader considerations than just methodically building a hypothetical team - we are the STL Cardinals and fans have expectations. And those fans are absolutely necessary to support the short term and long term payroll capacity to compete. So we have to balance low level prospects (which we already should have a number of from previous drafts and our renewed focus on "development" and intl league signings) with keeping enough talent on the MLB roster to win games and sell tickets. If we take too long with this "reset", many of the fans will go away permanently, and that is the very real and worst case risk. 2026 is closer to an expiration date on not competing than people want to admit. Procratinating any longer will have (unforseen by some) long term consequences.

And we absolutely have the payroll flexibility to do more next year - the trouble is, we don't play in FA markets, full stop. So deadline trades and offseason trades are really the only opportunities to acquire MLB talent that changes our franchise. It can and should be done.

McGwire, Renteria, Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday, Goldy, Nado - all came from trades. Its time to go to work on this again and get the fans back in the stands.

I hear what you are saying. For the sake of discussion, suppose the Cardinals did all of the things I proposed, I don't think we are worse off even next year. My opinion is that we would be better then than we are now. Catcher- same as this year with Bernal at AAA. 1B- same as this year with Briceno making it to AAA. 2B- same as this year. SS- same as this year. 3B- Arenado and Gorman gone. Need Saggese or Wetherholt to step up and Miller to make it to AAA, The outfield is murky. LF- Herrera? or Church (or Scott if we get Crawford for center). CF- Crawford or Scott. RF- Walker, or Church with Baez making it to AAA. Starting pitching minus Pallante, Fedde, Mikolas adding in Abel, Tiedemann, McGreevy and Roby, Henderson, Hence, maybe Doyle at AAA. The bullpen would have to be built. I like that team better than the one we have and there are reinforcements nearby.

[rockondlouie]

Fun proposals TB

But ZERO chance NADO would approve a move to the lowly Angels unless he really is desperate to end his career near his Newport Beach home.

[Talkin' Baseball]

Phillies say no on the first one. They are not giving up 3 of their top 5 prospects for two rentals, a lh outfielder doing no better than the two they have. Davis has little trade value at this point.Maybe Helsley and Crooks for Abel is doable,
Cards aren’t looking to trade Burlerson and he is worth more than an injury prone pitcher,

I figured to get the most pushback on the Burleson proposal. He is for sure, a good major league hitter. As Randy Flores talked about after drafting Doyle, these pitchers are sooo expensive to get on the market. Tiedemann has top of the rotation stuff. He is filthy. In his first year of pro ball he pitched 78.2 innings and struck out 117. In his second season, he pitched 44 innings and struck out 82. In his third season (when he blew out his elbow) he pitched 17 innings and struck out 27.

It comes down to some philosophical choices. Are we willing to trade someone who is pretty good and has reasonable certainty for someone who could be really exceptional, but has a degree of uncertainty? It is easier to find someone to replace what Burleson provides than it is to find someone to fill the top of the rotation slots. Tiedemann is close to the majors and nearly ready to pitch again, but he is not a sure thing.

If I'm the Blue Jays, I think I'd hang on to Tiedemann

If they will trade him, what would you give?

[Talkin' Baseball]

Fun proposals TB

But ZERO chance NADO would approve a move to the lowly Angels unless he really is desperate to end his career near his Newport Beach home.

In some ways I agree with you. They were reportedly on his approved list last winter and I believe the Angels will buy and that's why I proposed it. He may reject it- but I'm certainly proposing it!

[rockondlouie]

Fun proposals TB

But ZERO chance NADO would approve a move to the lowly Angels unless he really is desperate to end his career near his Newport Beach home.

In some ways I agree with you. They were reportedly on his approved list last winter and I believe the Angels will buy and that's why I proposed it. He may reject it- but I'm certainly proposing it!

I say go for it:

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

[Talkin' Baseball]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

If I read everything correctly you had an outfielder in one of the trades. I’m hoping they target some hard hitting outfield prospects. Of course pitching is a need. Hopefully they addressed some of this in the draft.

Yeah, the outfielder mentioned is Justin Crawford (Carl Crawford's son). He is a left-handed hitter carrying a .33 BA and an.839 OPS in AAA right now. He is fast.

Appreciate the work

Great, another LH hitter. Wish you'd post if these trade pieces are RH or LH hitters.

Cards don't need more LH hitters

Hard to find power/good RH OFers...odd

I did also propose trading away 3 left handed hitters.

To bring in what handed hitting?

Justin Crawford- Left
Aidan Miller- Right
Josue Briceno- Left

[2ninr]

I wouldn't hesitate with any of them except maybe Gorman. And that's maybe.

[scoutyjones2]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

If I read everything correctly you had an outfielder in one of the trades. I’m hoping they target some hard hitting outfield prospects. Of course pitching is a need. Hopefully they addressed some of this in the draft.

Yeah, the outfielder mentioned is Justin Crawford (Carl Crawford's son). He is a left-handed hitter carrying a .33 BA and an.839 OPS in AAA right now. He is fast.

Appreciate the work

Great, another LH hitter. Wish you'd post if these trade pieces are RH or LH hitters.

Cards don't need more LH hitters

Hard to find power/good RH OFers...odd

I did also propose trading away 3 left handed hitters.

To bring in what handed hitting?

Justin Crawford- Left
Aidan Miller- Right
Josue Briceno- Left

LoL. Thanks. I did look them up. So net gain of 1 RH, who is not a 3b, as noted in your proposal.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I wouldn't hesitate with any of them except maybe Gorman. And that's maybe.

I don't dislike Gorman, but in this setting we would be getting back what I think will be a much better hitter. Briceno has a strikeout rate less than 15% and actually has more walks than K's. He's not a finished product, but I could see Briceno being much more consistent and athletic. (Gorman's bad back worries me long-term)

[2ninr]

I wouldn't hesitate with any of them except maybe Gorman. And that's maybe.

I don't dislike Gorman, but in this setting we would be getting back what I think will be a much better hitter. Briceno has a strikeout rate less than 15% and actually has more walks than K's. He's not a finished product, but I could see Briceno being much more consistent and athletic. (Gorman's bad back worries me long-term)

Valid point. I just have trouble letting go of that power potential. He's all we really have.

[RunSup]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

I love the 1st 2 trades, especially #1.
I'd do either of those without blinking!

Do them all. Look at the haul.

Yes. But the Cardinals are still pretending to contend. So none of this will happen, especially if Mo still is in the big chair for the next month.

[Talkin' Baseball]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

I love the 1st 2 trades, especially #1.
I'd do either of those without blinking!

Do them all. Look at the haul.

Yes. But the Cardinals are still pretending to contend. So none of this will happen, especially if Mo still is in the big chair for the next month.

My common sense says to agree, but I was pleasantly surprised at the end of spring training when Scott made the team instead of Siani and Liberatore made the rotation instead of Matz. i was pleasantly surprised by the draft. They definitely changed their approach- and it was better. Like you, I'm not sold on a good deadline as long as Mo is involved, but things are changing so I am going to try to leave room for the idea that maybe, just maybe, I will be pleasantly surprised by the deadline too.

[Talkin' Baseball]

The following are some trade proposals I had fun putting together. With the exception of the last one, they are focused on getting some higher ceiling talent that is MLB ready, or near ready. I have used Baseball Trade Values to double-check myself to make sure I am at least in the neighborhood of values. In some cases I overpaid a little, in some cases I underpaid a little, but in the end they check out as being reasonably close. Feel free to ask questions, or float your own ideas.

#1- The Blockbuster
Phillies get Ryan Helsley, Lars Nootbaar, Steven Matz, Jimmy Crooks (Cardinals #6), and Chase Davis (Cardinals #9)
Cardinals get Aidan Miller 21y/o SS/3B AA (MLB #22, Phillies #2), Justin Crawford 21y/o CF AAA (MLB #49, Phillies #3), and Mick Abel 23y/o RHP (MLB #87, Phillies #5)

#2 A Strikeout Machine
Blue Jays get Alec Burleson
Cardinals get Ricky Tiedemann 22y/o LHP AAA 6’4” 220 lb AAA (Blue Jays #4) coming of TJ surgery, nearly ready to return

#3 The MOTB
Tigers get Andre Pallante and Nolan Gorman
Cardinals get Josue Briceno 20 y/o 1B/C AA 6’4” 200lb (MLB #58, Tigers #4) .296 BA 1.009 OPS, 15 HR so far this season

#4 The Dump
Angels get Nolan Arenado and $20M making his salary $16M and $15M the next 2 seasons
Cardinals get Camden Minacci 23 y/o RHRP AA (Angels #21)

I love the 1st 2 trades, especially #1.
I'd do either of those without blinking!

Do them all. Look at the haul.

Heck, do any of them! Do a variation of them! Do a different trade of this type and look at the improvement! I don't want to get to July 31 and see online that the Cardinals have dealt Erick Fedde to the Minnesota Twins for a fat 24 year old first baseman in low A. (Probably left handed too)

[ClassicO]

Phillies say no on the first one. They are not giving up 3 of their top 5 prospects for two rentals, a lh outfielder doing no better than the two they have. Davis has little trade value at this point.Maybe Helsley and Crooks for Abel is doable,
Cards aren’t looking to trade Burlerson and he is worth more than an injury prone pitcher,

Are you sure on the Phillies? I'd try them. Mark my words- They are going to swing big with somebody. For the sake of discussion, your point about Noot is well taken. He is actually doing better than the two they have. He can also play some CF where they are also having issues. And, as far as discussion, their prospect Miller is also struggling. He's hitting .233 with a .733 OPS- at AA. That's not much better than Noot is doing, but he is doing it in the bigs. It's also not that much better than Chase Davis is doing at AA. He may be ranked #22, but he's not a sure thing. They also get Crooks who for some reason has twice the trade value of Abel on BTV. Realmuto will not be back next year and they need a catching replacement. There are a dozen Cardinals to choose from who could be substituted, or included to help this along.

In all of these proposals the concept is more important than the particulars. Move expiring contracts, clear up roster redundancies, fix flaws in a "clunky" roster. Group them however you need to to come up with just a few players who fit better and have higher ceilings.

Good work. Hopefully, they are trying to make deals in the outfield and the pitching. I have NO untouchables if they can make a good deal -- and I want them to take risks because this team needs restructuring.

Guys like Burly - hit but nothing else. Gorman and Walker - sadly, they aren't developing. A roster with five second basemen, five catchers, and significant needs elsewhere. Chaim has his work cut out.

[TraveledLessRoad]

Sounds like Philly is going to go for a big-time closer. Jump the market and sell Helsley. The Tigers are also apparently in dire need of back-end bullpen help. Maybe Maton?

"Also, for what it's worth, multiple Phillies beat writers saying Dombrowski is going to be more aggressive in his search for bullpen arms and target the Emmanuel Clase types of the world certainly suggests the Phils will be willing to splash some prospects around."

Also, I wonder if Mo/Chaim should pick up the phone and give Baltimore a call on one of Coby Mayo or Heston Kjerstad. Those dudes are both being Jordan Walker'd to death over there and could use a change of scenery. I'd take a flyer on either one of those guys. Mayo, in particular.