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ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:57 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Simply review the players real stats and WATCH HIM PLAY……
How do you know that all those factors are weighted appropriately?
Why is a positional adjustment required and how to you know it’s adjusted appropriately?
Why is there a comparison with a fictional “replacement level” player?
Once you start massaging real stats you don’t think you lose authenticity?
Lazy mans easy way out from doing the real homework

ClassicO wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:57 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Simply review the players real stats and WATCH HIM PLAY……
How do you know that all those factors are weighted appropriately?
Why is a positional adjustment required and how to you know it’s adjusted appropriately?
Why is there a comparison with a fictional “replacement level” player?
Once you start massaging real stats you don’t think you lose authenticity?
Lazy mans easy way out from doing the real homework

Since you avoid the question- if WAR is lazy, what is your best stat or set of stats to show a players’ worth in all areas?
Still waiting.
Complaints without offering an alternative = whining.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:58 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:57 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Simply review the players real stats and WATCH HIM PLAY……
How do you know that all those factors are weighted appropriately?
Why is a positional adjustment required and how to you know it’s adjusted appropriately?
Why is there a comparison with a fictional “replacement level” player?
Once you start massaging real stats you don’t think you lose authenticity?
Lazy mans easy way out from doing the real homework

Since you avoid the question- if WAR is lazy, what is your best stat or set of stats to show a players’ worth in all areas?
Still waiting.
Complaints without offering an alternative = whining.

Or

Addressing a problem without a solution = part of the problem.

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:56 am A gold glove left fielder is overrated you can’t compare it to a guy like Winn who plays shortstop at a high level. A left fielder makes two maybe three catches a game? Of those every month he may make one or two plays other left fielders don’t make which may or may not lead to runs. O’Neil is woefully inconsistent you can’t plan on him contributing you definitely can’t go into the season saying he’s an anchor in the lineup because the only thing you know is he will go on the IL and his production will be hampered by injuries. Also if you have O’Neil on the team you have to have a fourth outfielder who is capable of playing every day because he’s going to be on the IL multiple times. So you can sing WAR all day long but it doesn’t change the fact that he is not a player a team should invest in unless it’s the dodgers who can sign solid 70 million dollar bench players to play everyday when he is on the IL

ClassicO wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:42 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 07:57 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Simply review the players real stats and WATCH HIM PLAY……
How do you know that all those factors are weighted appropriately?
Why is a positional adjustment required and how to you know it’s adjusted appropriately?
Why is there a comparison with a fictional “replacement level” player?
Once you start massaging real stats you don’t think you lose authenticity?
Lazy mans easy way out from doing the real homework

Since you avoid the question- if WAR is lazy, what is your best stat or set of stats to show a players’ worth in all areas?
Still waiting.
Complaints without offering an alternative = whining.

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 15:31 pm

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 08:56 am A gold glove left fielder is overrated you can’t compare it to a guy like Winn who plays shortstop at a high level. A left fielder makes two maybe three catches a game? Of those every month he may make one or two plays other left fielders don’t make which may or may not lead to runs. O’Neil is woefully inconsistent you can’t plan on him contributing you definitely can’t go into the season saying he’s an anchor in the lineup because the only thing you know is he will go on the IL and his production will be hampered by injuries. Also if you have O’Neil on the team you have to have a fourth outfielder who is capable of playing every day because he’s going to be on the IL multiple times. So you can sing WAR all day long but it doesn’t change the fact that he is not a player a team should invest in unless it’s the dodgers who can sign solid 70 million dollar bench players to play everyday when he is on the IL

All True

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

RunSup wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 16:48 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Thank you. WAR is a useful as a summary of player value and relative comparison.

Value towards a win is provided different ways around run creation and run prevention.

It's not a counting stat (PA, AB,H,R, HR, SB, CS, K, BB, IP, BF, PT, PO, Assists...)

It's not a rate stat ( BA, OBP, SLUG, ERA, WHIP, K/9, BB/9)

It's just for summarizing and comparing value in terms of contribution to "wins". It doesn't tell you how that value is created. So you look at other data.

Runs Created and OPS get at offensive value well. But you can't just look at OPS and assume you have a power hitter or leadoff hitter.

WAR is also not a predictor. It' looks at past performance. It is also highly dependent on the player actually being in the lineup.

The stuff they are using for predicting performance are things like spin rates, exit velocities etc. and goes much deeper ... because they can collect so much more data now than when we were kids looking at the box scores in the Soorting News.

You don't have to like WAR or use WAR. Just when you enter a discussion comparing players and value, some kind of objective frame of reference is useful. Not the only thing to use. I still trust what scouting eyes see and discern.

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 17:06 pm

RunSup wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 16:48 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Thank you. WAR is a useful as a summary of player value and relative comparison.

Value towards a win is provided different ways around run creation and run prevention.

It's not a counting stat (PA, AB,H,R, HR, SB, CS, K, BB, IP, BF, PT, PO, Assists...)

It's not a rate stat ( BA, OBP, SLUG, ERA, WHIP, K/9, BB/9)

It's just for summarizing and comparing value in terms of contribution to "wins". It doesn't tell you how that value is created. So you look at other data.

Runs Created and OPS get at offensive value well. But you can't just look at OPS and assume you have a power hitter or leadoff hitter.

WAR is also not a predictor. It' looks at past performance. It is also highly dependent on the player actually being in the lineup.

The stuff they are using for predicting performance are things like spin rates, exit velocities etc. and goes much deeper ... because they can collect so much more data now than when we were kids looking at the box scores in the Soorting News.

You don't have to like WAR or use WAR. Just when you enter a discussion comparing players and value, some kind of objective frame of reference is useful. Not the only thing to use. I still trust what scouting eyes see and discern.

So all I would need to do is gather the corresponding WAR players that add up to 100 wins if I wish to have a 100 team? That simple?

RunSup wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 16:48 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Thank you. WAR is a useful as a summary of player value and relative comparison.

Value towards a win is provided different ways around run creation and run prevention.

It's not a counting stat (PA, AB,H,R, HR, SB, CS, K, BB, IP, BF, PT, PO, Assists...)

It's not a rate stat ( BA, OBP, SLUG, ERA, WHIP, K/9, BB/9)

It's just for summarizing and comparing value in terms of contribution to "wins". It doesn't tell you how that value is created. So you look at other data.

Runs Created and OPS get at offensive value well. But you can't just look at OPS and assume you have a power hitter or leadoff hitter.

WAR is also not a predictor. It' looks at past performance. It is also highly dependent on the player actually being in the lineup.

The stuff they are using for predicting performance are things like spin rates, exit velocities etc. and goes much deeper ... because they can collect so much more data now than when we were kids looking at the box scores in the Soorting News.

You don't have to like WAR or use WAR. Just when you enter a discussion comparing players and value, some kind of objective frame of reference is useful. Not the only thing to use. I still trust what scouting eyes see and discern.

Goldfan wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 17:06 pm

RunSup wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 16:48 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑14 Jul 2025 22:42 pm WAR is an estimate, but based on many statistics. I've used it for the best estimate of a player's overall value.
Not just hitting. Also defense and baserunning. Add adjustments for the venue and position.

What do you guys, Melville and Goldfan, think is the best statistic (or more) you guys argue that gives the best estimate of a total player worth, since that is what we are looking for when comparing players?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/abou ... tion.shtml
WAR for position players has six components: Batting Runs, Baserunning Runs, Runs added or lost due to Grounding into Double Plays, Fielding Runs, Positional Adjustment Runs, Replacement level Runs (based on playing time).
All are based on calculations. EX: Baserunning: Stolen Bases and Caught Stealing, and Non-Basestealing baserunning which includes items like 1st to 3rd on singles, outs on the bases, tagging up on fly balls, scoring from third on a ground ball, etc.

Show me yours...

Thank you. WAR is a useful as a summary of player value and relative comparison.

Value towards a win is provided different ways around run creation and run prevention.

It's not a counting stat (PA, AB,H,R, HR, SB, CS, K, BB, IP, BF, PT, PO, Assists...)

It's not a rate stat ( BA, OBP, SLUG, ERA, WHIP, K/9, BB/9)

It's just for summarizing and comparing value in terms of contribution to "wins". It doesn't tell you how that value is created. So you look at other data.

Runs Created and OPS get at offensive value well. But you can't just look at OPS and assume you have a power hitter or leadoff hitter.

WAR is also not a predictor. It' looks at past performance. It is also highly dependent on the player actually being in the lineup.

The stuff they are using for predicting performance are things like spin rates, exit velocities etc. and goes much deeper ... because they can collect so much more data now than when we were kids looking at the box scores in the Soorting News.

You don't have to like WAR or use WAR. Just when you enter a discussion comparing players and value, some kind of objective frame of reference is useful. Not the only thing to use. I still trust what scouting eyes see and discern.

So all I would need to do is gather the corresponding WAR players that add up to 100 wins if I wish to have a 100 team? That simple?

Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑15 Jul 2025 17:58 pm WAR Isn’t useless but it’s very overrated. I still remember the war crowd saying the cards should have went above the cubs 184 million and signed Hayward for 200 million because he was a war god and I was saying a light hitting good defensive right fielder is not worth signing for anywhere close to that. And who can forget Jeffy saying how awesome the war god bader was and how he was better than Willie McGee lol